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Old 03-30-2011, 03:45 AM   #211
Micku
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Default Re: The Top 10 Myths about Kobe Bryant/Lakers explained

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Originally Posted by Christofire
Is their any stat that we can use that doesnt have to be manipulated to favor Jordan?.....first we adjust the pace to make the inferior deensive era he played in look good.. what next are we going to adjust the heights of the short arse guards he played against?

It seems like you are just hating now.

There are things that the 00s do better. Your average 00 is a better shooter. Your average 00 contest better sometimes. Your average 00 could be more athletic.

But Jordan was one of the best. What's so hard about accepting that? A lot of people say Jordan is one of the best. I didn't think he was until I researched all of this. But Jordan is not universally the best. You can say Kareem, Wilt, Russell, etc. Some people think Magic or Bird are GOAT. Just post your arguments.

I personally don't think there is a GOAT. There were great players in their prime who had their runs. Jordan run was just more successful than most, that's all.
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Old 03-30-2011, 03:52 AM   #212
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Default Re: The Top 10 Myths about Kobe Bryant/Lakers explained

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Originally Posted by Micku
That's silly. Shaq used to destroy his opponents, and score high 30 sometimes high 40 points. LeBron displayed a legendary performance against the Pistons. Wade killed the Celts last year. What's so hard about believing that Jordan did something similar against one of the best defensive teams at that time?

It seems like you have a hard time grasping it.

My point is this. Defense is better now, players are better now, bigger now, stronger now. The league is more competitive now. Jordan played weaker competition, weaker defenses and Kobe is a better player than Jordan was.

The only thing that this thread has successfully accomplished is proving the fact that Numbers amassed in this ERA cannot be compared to the numbers amassed in that ERA. The significantly different rules don't allow it. So at the end of the day all we have is the eyeball test. My eyes have told me after watching both Jordan and Bryant play that Kobe Bryant is the best player that i have ever seen.


Also i apologize for the last few post i made i was intentionally being ignorant and nonsensical in my responses to your posts. My point over the years however has always been that it's pointless comparing the numbers of 2 players in 2 different ERAS that started their career on 2 opposite ends of the spectrum

Last edited by Christofire : 03-30-2011 at 03:56 AM.
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Old 03-30-2011, 03:54 AM   #213
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Default Re: The Top 10 Myths about Kobe Bryant/Lakers explained

never said Jordan wasnt one of the best...I think he's second Behind Kobe..and as much as i hate Lebron i think he ends better than the both of them
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Old 03-30-2011, 03:58 AM   #214
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Default Re: The Top 10 Myths about Kobe Bryant/Lakers explained

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Back them down extremely quickly?.....if the defense was bad enough to allow then so be it. do you think that that tactic could work today and increase scoring to what it was with the defensive riles we have in place now?

Hahah. You can't even touch the guy now. They have free roam over the perimeter.

But let me find you some clips:

This is by bballbreakdown: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ARHtF4Letw

Notice that the Coach Nick say that play differently and everybody could play back to the basket, unlike today. They all had great footwork. The game was different back then.


Do you see how they used to run down the court: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkhZl...lated#t=02m24s

They also set up their offense A LOT quicker. I need to find one where they put full court pressure so you can see their footwork, but I think the bballbreakdown one has an example of one.
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Old 03-30-2011, 04:03 AM   #215
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Default Re: The Top 10 Myths about Kobe Bryant/Lakers explained

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Originally Posted by Christofire
My point is this. Defense is better now, players are better now, bigger now, stronger now. The league is more competitive now. Jordan played weaker competition, weaker defenses and Kobe is a better player than Jordan was.

The only thing that this thread has successfully accomplished is proving the fact that Numbers amassed in this ERA cannot be compared to the numbers amassed in that ERA. The significantly different rules don't allow it. So at the end of the day all we have is the eyeball test. My eyes have told me after watching both Jordan and Bryant play that Kobe Bryant is the best player that i have ever seen.

I disagree about the league is more competitive, but you are entitled to your opinion.

But don't get me wrong. The defense changes every single decade. The 70s and below probably had the most physical defense. The 80s had physical, but not as much. They also wasn't used to the 3 pt shot, so they didn't guard it as much.

The early 90s had a mixture of everything, but the rotation was a bit off. You'll see teams get called for illegal defense a lot. They also cut off a bit of hand checking.

The 00s made it harder for centers to work down low. The early 00s had zone and a bit of hand check.

10s made things easier for the perimeter players to drive, and harder for the centers to work. It encourages playing great team defense, but nothing too physical.
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Old 03-30-2011, 04:10 AM   #216
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Default Re: The Top 10 Myths about Kobe Bryant/Lakers explained

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Originally Posted by Micku
I disagree about the league is more competitive, but you are entitled to your opinion.

But don't get me wrong. The defense changes every single decade. The 70s and below probably had the most physical defense. The 80s had physical, but not as much. They also wasn't used to the 3 pt shot, so they didn't guard it as much.

The early 90s had a mixture of everything, but the rotation was a bit off. You'll see teams get called for illegal defense a lot. They also cut off a bit of hand checking.

The 00s made it harder for centers to work down low. The early 00s had zone and a bit of hand check.

10s made things easier for the perimeter players to drive, and harder for the centers to work. It encourages playing great team defense, but nothing too physical.


i would'nt say it's easier drive,a better choice of words would be easier to get by the primary defender, but you meet more on your way to the rim, where when there were no zones the hadn check made it tougher to get by the first guy but once you got by him there were less people in your way. So it was kinda of a trade off. The intial defender has a tougher task defensively but he has more back up if he fails, back in the handcheck era the intial defender had an easier job of defending but he had less back up and in some cases no back up because guys had to stay with their assignment which is why ISO were so prevalent.

Players today have to make far more moves on the way to the rim than you had in the illegal defense era. a perfect example of that would be...the dwyane dunk the other night. he had to cross his man over, spin by the zoning help defender and dunk on the center waiting under the rim for him

Last edited by Christofire : 03-30-2011 at 04:15 AM.
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Old 03-30-2011, 07:33 AM   #217
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Default Re: The Top 10 Myths about Kobe Bryant/Lakers explained

I don't know how many F#cking times we gotta go through this, but lets start from the start. Jordan is better and always wil be because Kobe will never do this:





So leave it, its done. Over, enough.
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Old 03-30-2011, 09:16 AM   #218
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Default Re: The Top 10 Myths about Kobe Bryant/Lakers explained

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Originally Posted by Micku
No. That wasn't the case because they used to run up the court and set their plays very fast to shoot.



There's no need for a facepalm. It's math. Look:



- http://www.basketball-reference.com/...y.html#def_rtg



- http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/web...ats_explained/


And check out the 80s in comparison to the 2004.

The average FGA in 2004 was 6545. The average FGA in 1988 was 7268. That's a 600+ shot difference. Also, look at the pacing:

2004: the average pacing was 90.1.

1988: the average pacing was 99.6.

Not to mention the shot selection was better, which makes it harder to defend.

And since you have to divide every possession by 100 in order for defensive rating to be effective, this makes that every year it is inflated to that specific year. Which makes defensive rating invalid to compare of all time.

You don't do this. You divide points allowed by the number of possessions used by the offense you defended against (this number changes and is different for every team and year) and times that by 100 to represent 100 possessions.
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Old 03-30-2011, 09:55 AM   #219
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Default Re: The Top 10 Myths about Kobe Bryant/Lakers explained

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Originally Posted by Yao Ming's Foot
You don't do this. You divide points allowed by the number of possessions used by the offense you defended against (this number changes and is different for every team and year) and times that by 100 to represent 100 possessions.

Yeah, I got confused by the "per 100". I thought when you say that, you are suppose to divide it by 100. You usually like Points per game. You have 100 points in 3 games, so you are suppose to do the formula like: 100/3. I read it wrong. Heh.
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Old 03-30-2011, 02:39 PM   #220
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Default Re: The Top 10 Myths about Kobe Bryant/Lakers explained

Great article from a terrible source. Like it or not, what they put out there about Kobe and the Lakers is true.
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Old 03-31-2011, 04:46 PM   #221
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Default Re: The Top 10 Myths about Kobe Bryant/Lakers explained

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christofire
My point is this. Defense is better now, players are better now, bigger now, stronger now. The league is more competitive now. Jordan played weaker competition, weaker defenses and Kobe is a better player than Jordan was.

The only thing that this thread has successfully accomplished is proving the fact that Numbers amassed in this ERA cannot be compared to the numbers amassed in that ERA. The significantly different rules don't allow it. So at the end of the day all we have is the eyeball test. My eyes have told me after watching both Jordan and Bryant play that Kobe Bryant is the best player that i have ever seen.


Also i apologize for the last few post i made i was intentionally being ignorant and nonsensical in my responses to your posts. My point over the years however has always been that it's pointless comparing the numbers of 2 players in 2 different ERAS that started their career on 2 opposite ends of the spectrum
Really? Jordan actually was slightly bigger, had larger hands, and a better vertical leap. Slight Edge to Jordan in terms of athletic ability. Fundamental Skills, Idk. Close for sure.
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