Why do people base how good/GOAT a player is by the amount of rings?

[Hey Yo]

As Herman Edwards once said, "You play to win the game."

A lot of guys can put up empty stats on bad teams. They can play the game the wrong way, dominate the ball, not play optimal team ball and when it's all said and done, they might have stats that might compare with some of the best ever. How much weight does that really carry? Not much in my book. Superstars only win titles as "the man" by playing the game the right way, for the most part.

Clutch matters. The game isn't played by robots. Guys can shrink in the moment (2011 Lebron) or elevate his game (Hakeem 1994). For people going strictly by the numbers and saying there is no such thing as clutch or choking, I really question whether they played the game.

It's about winning and impacting the game. Not just put up empty stats.

So you looked at MJ as a ball hogging loser who just put up empty stats until the 4th quarter buzzer sounded in game 5 of the 1991 Finals?

Then all of a sudden when the buzzer quit, he was as an all-time great player who was 5x better than the MJ before the buzzer sounded?

[sdot_thadon]

So you looked at MJ as a ball hogging loser who just put up empty stats until the 4th quarter buzzer sounded in game 5 of the 1991 Finals?

Then all of a sudden when the buzzer quit, he was as an all-time great player who was 5x better than the MJ before the buzzer sounded?

Nailed it.

[Sarcastic]

So you looked at MJ as a ball hogging loser who just put up empty stats until the 4th quarter buzzer sounded in game 5 of the 1991 Finals?

Then all of a sudden when the buzzer quit, he was as an all-time great player who was 5x better than the MJ before the buzzer sounded?

You mock it, but in actuality he was considered a ball hogging loser that couldn't win up till that exact point. Winning his first ring drastically changed the perception of him.

[nba_55]

You mock it, but in actuality he was considered a ball hogging loser that couldn't win up till that exact point. Winning his first ring drastically changed the perception of him.

Damn. If the same mj was stuck on bad teams his whole career, he would be this generation s kevin love?

[nba_55]

So you looked at MJ as a ball hogging loser who just put up empty stats until the 4th quarter buzzer sounded in game 5 of the 1991 Finals?

Then all of a sudden when the buzzer quit, he was as an all-time great player who was 5x better than the MJ before the buzzer sounded?

Ether

[Sarcastic]

The theme in the 91 Finals was Magic was the winner, and Jordan was not a team player. After game 1, it was very much thought that the Lakers would win because of Magic, and Jordan still being too much of a ball hog.

[sdot_thadon]

You mock it, but in actuality he was considered a ball hogging loser that couldn't win up till that exact point. Winning his first ring drastically changed the perception of him.

Yep, but that's the point. He didn't become some other player soon as the buzzer sounded. He was already that good. Perception changing shouldn't count so much, as opposed to the real substance of it.

[Sarcastic]

Damn. If the same mj was stuck on bad teams his whole career, he would be this generation s kevin love?

He was stuck on bad teams for his first few years. The Bulls were one of the worst organizations in the NBA. Why do you think Magic threatened to go back to college if the Bulls picked him? Jordan turned an awful franchise into the second best dynasty of all time, with mediocre pieces.

[Sarcastic]

Yep, but that's the point. He didn't become some other player soon as the buzzer sounded. He was already that good. Perception changing shouldn't count so much, as opposed to the real substance of it.

It wasn't an instantaneous thing, but he was definitely a different player in 1991 than he had ever been. It took him averaging 10+ assists in the Finals to win. Pre 1991 Jordan wouldn't do that. He could've, but wouldn't.

[Dr Hawk]

If Russell had 3 rings instead of 11, playing exactly at the level he played, he would be nowhere near the Top 10 as it is now for the most of people.

[sdot_thadon]

It wasn't an instantaneous thing, but he was definitely a different player in 1991 than he had ever been. It took him averaging 10+ assists in the Finals to win. Pre 1991 Jordan wouldn't do that. He could've, but wouldn't.

I don't really think he was all that different aside from the triangle forcing the ball out of his hands some, and even then he still did his thing. The biggest difference between pre 91 and 91 on is his cast was ready for the big time.

[stalkerforlife]

Aww...the OP's favorite player doesn't have legitimate rings.

[Hey Yo]

You mock it, but in actuality he was considered a ball hogging loser that couldn't win up till that exact point. Winning his first ring drastically changed the perception of him.

Then why did Nike sign MJ by enticing him with big money and great incentives early in his career before he won a title? Why would they want to sponsor a loser like Jordan?

Why would the Bulls offer him an ungodly contract (for the times) in 1988 of 8yrs...25mil?

Shouldn't they have been convinced he was a loser who couldn't get out of the first round and shipped him out?

[BigMacAttack]

It is certainly not the only consideration but it IS a factor that should be considered when ranking the greats, sport is about winning at this level, if you never won its hard to call them a truly great or dominant player...and my favourite player was Tmac...

[bizil]

If Russell had 3 rings instead of 11, playing exactly at the level he played, he would be nowhere near the Top 10 as it is now for the most of people.

Awesome point!! He has SO MANY RINGS that it really vaulted him up the charts. Russ was a great rebounding, passing, and defensive big man. BUT his scoring ability left a lot to be desired. In the grand scheme, He WASN'T close to alpha dog scoring ability at all. Russ wasn't ANYWHERE near the two way threat centers like Wilt, Kareem, Dream, Robinson, Ewing, Walton, etc. I would take ALL of these centers over Russ peak wise:

Wilt
Kareem
Shaq
Dream
Moses
Robinson
Ewing
Walton
McAdoo

Rings did more for Russ than ANY OTHER PLAYER in American team sports. In general, he's barely a top 10 player of all time peak wise among centers. And he's NOWHERE near a top 10 player of all time peak wise AMONG ALL POSITIONS!! BUT BECAUSE of rings, he's MUCH HIGHER UP on the GOAT charts.