If Bill Russell made one more lay-up per quarter

[RRR3]

1. Wasn't his field goal percentage good for the time he played in?
Looking at Basketball-reference, he finished top 5 in FG% 4 times:

1956-57 42.7% (5th)
1957-58 44.2% (3rd)
1958-59 45.7% (2nd)
1959-60 46.7% (4th)


2. If he could score more efficiently, then why the hell wouldn't he? Are you saying he missed shots on purpose to "help his team"?

[Soundwave]

You can say this about anyone.

If Jordan scored an extra 2 ppg every quarter (no big deal, right?) he'd have a 40 ppg career.

If Shaq dunked one extra basket every quarter he'd have 6-7 scoring titles and probably 2 or more MVPs.

If Bird could've scored an extra 8 points every game, the Celtics maybe have 4 or 5 rings and Magic has a few less.

[G.O.A.T]

You can say this about anyone.

If Jordan scored an extra 2 ppg every quarter (no big deal, right?) he'd have a 40 ppg career.

If Shaq dunked one extra basket every quarter he'd have 6-7 scoring titles and probably 2 or more MVPs.

If Bird could've scored an extra 8 points every game, the Celtics maybe have 4 or 5 rings and Magic has a few less.

I don't mean this to be a serious point. (Obvious I think)

But Russell took far fewer shots than those guys to begin with. All those guys had offenses designed to get the ball to them in a position to score. The Celtics ran a total of two plays for Russell o get a shot in his career. (Not two times, two different plays) The motion of the thread wasn't about him taking more shots, it was about him caring about his stats enough to take more shots.

[cltcfn2924]

it;s harder if u have a sht team (wilt)

Yes of course, Baylor and West were sht. Or you have no idea of what you're saying. Having to choose between the two the answer is obvious. You don't know sht.

[LAZERUSS]

Yes of course, Baylor and West were sht. Or you have no idea of what you're saying. Having to choose between the two the answer is obvious. You don't know sht.

Baylor was pure SHT in the '69 Finals. He was THE reason (along with an incompetent coach) for LA losing that series.

BTW, Baylor and Wilt only played ONE season together when they were healthy (and Baylor was well past his prime BTW), and only TWO post-seasons total (and Wilt was playing on one leg in the other one, and was still the far greater player.)

[Jameerthefear]

Yes of course, Baylor and West were sht. Or you have no idea of what you're saying. Having to choose between the two the answer is obvious. You don't know sht.

Yep. Pretty much everyone older than 12 years old knows Wilt was a choker.

[Psileas]

If Bill Russell made one more lay-up per quarter

I had asked a similar question in the past, regarding Russell's scoring, so I repeat it: Does anyone think that Russell would exchange his career's trajectory for anyone else's just in order to be seen as a more prolific scorer? Does anyone think that, e.g, he'd exchange his scoring with 80's Jordan's scoring, while also having 80's Jordan's title "success" rate?
Dude was ending one season after another celebrating, while every other single GOAT candidate ended 60+% of their seasons defeated and disappointed, and he's supposed to need to have joined their club just in order to be seen as the better scorer by uninformed fans? Dream on.

[Hittin_Shots]

less competition. there were 8 fukkin teams bruh.

just out of curiosity I looked up the w/l records in the 1960 season (normally I don't care about stats from such a weak era)

BUT IN BILL RUSSELL'S 1960 CHAMPIONSHIP SEASON 3 FUKKIN TEAMS HAD A POSITIVE RECORD. 3 OF THE FUKKIN 8 TEAMS IN THE LEAGUE. I SWEAR TO GOD IF YOU SAY THIS GUY IS A GOAT ONE MORE TIME I WILL HOOK YOU IN THE GABBER MATE.

This guy had to compete with 3 teams for a championship. There was absolutely no competition at all. Where is my damn cookie.

One of the stupidest things I've ever read..

imagine if there were 8 teams today.. the best 80 players in the league across only eight teams.. if you think that's less competition I think you struggle with logic.. and only 3 of 8 were positive? Do u want 8/8 positive? It would appear you don't understand mathematics also.. if one team wins the other must lose..

[chips93]

Explain to me why that makes it easier to win titles as oppose to harder (which it obviously does) and I'll give you a cookie.

1/8 > 1/30

[navy]

What if Bill Russell cared about stats and had a time machine?

What if he cared what uninformed people thought of his career and decided to take 2 more shots a quarter and on average make one of them. Or to be more fair, make 44% of those shots?

Now this would probably cost his team a few games here and there. Let's say it costs them 3 titles too. Now he has eight rings, but his career ppg average is 22 and he has a peak season of over 26 ppg. He averages over 20ppg in 11 of 13 seasons and over 25 three times.

Is he the greatest player of all-time in the opinions of the uniformed?

Is it as simple as one lay-up per quarter?

It's amazing how you dont think this one layup thing applies to every player.

[Psileas]

1/8 > 1/30

Not a good argument at all as long as, practically in every season, around 15+ teams are completely irrelevant and around 10+ more will only be playoff participants, but not real title contenders. Miami had no problem to reach in 4 Finals in a row in a 15 team conference and everyone expected it to, not to mention that there have been 7 more repeats/3peats since the late 80's, plus a Spurs team that won 5 titles in 16 years, meaning that, even in a 30 team league, winning isn't that hard for a team that is well-run.

It's amazing how you dont think this one layup thing applies to every player.

This wouldn't change people's perception on most other greats nearly as much, since people always view scoring first, not to mention that, taken as a percent increase, an increase from 14 to 22 is more substantial than an increase from 25 to 33. In the same spirit, Russell taking 1 more shot per quarter, under the circumstances he played, is easier and more realistic than someone like Kobe doing the same thing.

[navy]

This wouldn't change people's perception on most other greats nearly as much, since people always view scoring first, not to mention that, taken as a percent increase, an increase from 14 to 22 is more substantial than an increase from 25 to 33. In the same spirit, Russell taking 1 more shot per quarter, under the circumstances he played, is easier and more realistic than someone like Kobe doing the same thing.

8 points is a substantial scoring difference in the nba. You cant just add points to a player and say that is what he could have averaged. It makes no sense. What about a 20 point scorer to a 28 point scorer? A 22 point scorer to a 30 point scorer. These are substantial hypothetical increases nomatter how you look at it, not reality.

Also, sounds like your making the case for Russel playing in a weak era.

[Psileas]

8 points is a substantial scoring difference in the nba. You cant just add points to a player and say that is what he could have averaged. It makes no sense. What about a 20 point scorer to a 28 point scorer? A 22 point scorer to a 30 point scorer. These are substantial hypothetical increases nomatter how you look at it, not reality.

Sounds like your making the case for Russel playing in a weak era.

8 points is a substantial scoring difference, but it's easier to achieve if you're an average scorer who decides to become a good one than if you're a high scorer who decides to put up GOAT-like numbers. Let alone, to keep on for your whole career.
From that point (and for other reasons, like pace and more mpg - not sure how someone would translate this into "making a case for weak era"), it's more realistic and less detrimental to the team to expect a scorer like Russell to put up Mourning-like ppg stats than to expect Kobe to put up prime Jordan stats (including putting up prime-Wilt stats in his 2005-07 scoring peak).

[navy]

8 points is a substantial scoring difference, but it's easier to achieve if you're an average scorer who decides to become a good one than if you're a high scorer who decides to put up GOAT-like numbers. Let alone, to keep on for your whole career.
From that point (and for other reasons, like pace and more mpg - not sure how someone would translate this into "making a case for weak era"), it's more realistic and less detrimental to the team to expect a scorer like Russell to put up Mourning-like ppg stats than to expect Kobe to put up prime Jordan stats (including putting up prime-Wilt stats in his 2005-07 scoring peak).

I disagree.

If Russel was putting up like 14 points on 60% shooting and you claimed he could put up 20ish on say 50%? I would buy that.

Lebron averages what? 27 game on 57% shooting. It wouldnt be a tall task to say he could average 30 on 50% shooting.

But to straight up go 8 points from 15ppg and also maintain his percentages? Laughable assertion at best.

If your only scoring 15ppg on 44%, it really isnt a stretch to say you arent a great scorer. Even if your ppg was low because of the role you are playing.

[Overdrive]

I had asked a similar question in the past, regarding Russell's scoring, so I repeat it: Does anyone think that Russell would exchange his career's trajectory for anyone else's just in order to be seen as a more prolific scorer? Does anyone think that, e.g, he'd exchange his scoring with 80's Jordan's scoring, while also having 80's Jordan's title "success" rate?
Dude was ending one season after another celebrating, while every other single GOAT candidate ended 60+% of their seasons defeated and disappointed, and he's supposed to need to have joined their club just in order to be seen as the better scorer by uninformed fans? Dream on.

100% sure any player before and after Jordan would exchange his career for Jordan's. Jordan lived in the perfect moment for a successful sporting career.
It was before Twitter, but Massmedia was big and interactive enough to create some godlike aura around Jordan to make him a world wide idol. Russell was great, maybe greater than any basketball player ever, but he play in a time were basketball was basically some marginalized sport.

Player's now have to deal with everything they post being discussed by tens of millions the moment after. See Dwight in the OTC.