#apples2oranges

[#number6ix#]

a lot of speculation and hypothetical situations going on in this thread

[guy]

Kobe is insecure as shit to write this. He's clearly holding on to that reason in any comparison to Jordan. Its funny because what Phil said in those quotes at least HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SHAQ or career achievements. Phil doesn't say anything like "if Kobe got to lead his own team from the beginning he would've been a better player and accomplished more i.e. like Jordan." To basically steer the argument in a different direction reeks of insecurity.

[DMAVS41]

Any pre Wizards version of MJ with Shaq for 8 years? At minimum 5 titles.

So if the situations were reversed Kobe

You would have 2 or 3 titles.

MJ would have 8 to 10 titles.

The gap would be even bigger than it currently is.

[Poochymama]

Any pre Wizards version of MJ with Shaq for 8 years? At minimum 5 titles.

So if the situations were reversed Kobe

You would have 2 or 3 titles.

MJ would have 8 to 10 titles.

The gap would be even bigger than it currently is.

Can't believe we have idiots trying to spin this in a way to say that Shaq was a negative for Kobe's legacy

Ideal situation for maximizing your legacy is getting a chance to put up mind blowing stats early on in your career as you wait for your team to improve. If you lose in the playoffs, it's because of the lack of supporting cast so you're excused. Then as you get around 26-27 years old, management should have put nice pieces around you (unless they fu*ck up) and you are on a contender for your prime and late-prime years (as #1 option, which is key).
Read more at http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...IJbMDFQ3tI3.99

So you think being drafted to a crap team for the first 7 years of your career is better for your legacy than being put in a position to win championships from the get go? Trust me, when all is said and done, people mostly care about rings. Those extra rings you got early on are going to boost your legacy waaaay more than those extra 1-2 ppg on 1-2% less FG% will.

[ispin69]

Damn Kobe so insecure. Anyways, I'll take MJ + Shaq any day of the week. Kobe and Scottie would be a joke and I love Scottie's defense. Scottie loved draining 3's on fast break which is kind of dumb after a nice steal then you get Kobe chucking and his overated D.

I would have loved to see MJ+Shaq vs Kobe+Scottie two on two. Shaq dunking on Scottie and his strong post game with MJ's classic high percentage fadeaway -- both high percentage players.

[G-Funk]

Kobe acts like playing with Shaq was a burden on him?
Bitch he carried you for 3 titles.

Kobe would have won 5 Finals MVP's by now bitchaz ni99a

[G-Funk]

Damn Kobe so insecure. Anyways, I'll take MJ + Shaq any day of the week. Kobe and Scottie would be a joke and I love Scottie's defense. Scottie loved draining 3's on fast break which is kind of dumb after a nice steal then you get Kobe chucking and his overated D.

I would have loved to see MJ+Shaq vs Kobe+Scottie two on two. Shaq dunking on Scottie and his strong post game with MJ's classic high percentage fadeaway -- both high percentage players.

lol

No basketball knowledge

[TheBigVeto]

Kobe acts like playing with Shaq was a burden on him?
Bitch he carried you for 3 titles.

Kobe has always been an ungrateful bitch, what's new.

[tpols]

Any pre Wizards version of MJ with Shaq for 8 years? At minimum 5 titles.

So if the situations were reversed Kobe

You would have 2 or 3 titles.

MJ would have 8 to 10 titles.

The gap would be even bigger than it currently is.

Im sorry, but this post is way, way too simplistic and doesnt have its roots grounded in reality.

First off you have to use context of what would happen in this scenario.

Rookie MJ would join the Lakers in the late 90s and be a promising young player alongside a very dominant Shaquille Oneal. We all know the offense wouldve still ran through Shaq, and MJ wouldnt have been given full reign to ball out like he did in his first year with the Bulls. Shaq wouldve been the undisputed man.

We all know MJ was a firery competitor and always wanted to be the best. Thats was his goal. To be the best. We all know MJ had a great work ethic, and we also know that he had a hard time trusting his teammates up until 6+ years into his career when Phil reigned him in and made him develop a trust in the system. He was very much seen as an individual type talent and not a true team player ala the greats before him Magic and Larry. That was the main knock on early MJ.

Now, you give a guy who wants to be the best to ever do it, who is insanely competitive and pushes others around him to work as hard as he did, a dominant entering his prime SHAQ and what happens?

They win 2-3 titles within the first 4-5 years easy.. and who gets the credit? Obviously Shaq. He would still feast on the subpar frontlines in th EAST and would still win FMVPs and be seen as the 'man' on those teams.

How does MJ respond to that?

Possessing many of the same traits Kobe does but to a larger than life degree(the real version-competitiveness, the ultimate dick, workaholic, physcotic confidence) MJ wouldve likely tried to get his share of the glory himself and wouldve gunned for FMVPs and to be the featured weapon etc.

Except MJ wouldve done it BETTER than Kobe and he wouldve actually won some of those awards over Shaq because he was actually that good. So say they win 2-3 titles with Shaq getting the glory and then they win their first one with MJ getting the FMVP and large share of the credit?

How does Shaq respond to that? The same Shaq that fueded with Penny.. and Kobe.. and Wade isnt going to fued with perhaps the most demanding and dickheaded player of all time stealing his thunder in the dead middle of his prime ? What?

Guarantee that relationship goes sour well before 5 titles, much less 8 or 10. Thats a joke because we SAW MJ get bored after winning three straight and retire to play baseball. But hes not going to get bored cakewalking to multiple chips with Shaq? MJ always wanted a challenge.

Not only that, but according to andgar, MJ left the league after his three chips because of a giant gambling conspiracy. And were going to act like that type of shit wouldnt affect his ability to stack titles? Having to leave the league under a guise in the middle of his prime because his competitive nature backfired on him(extreme addiction to gambling)?

Not only that but if you look at MJ's leadership.. it was largely built under his tenure with the Bulls where he had to fight it out with undermanned squads against legendary opponents like the C's and Bad Boy Pistons. He built that character and hunger to win through adversity and failing time and time again.. getting nailed in the me3dia for being too selfish and not being good enough. He BUILT that leadership.

It would not have been the same if he got it handed to him from the start. He wouldnt have learned and grown the same way as a player.

This stuff is delicate. It s not a video game where you add up imaginary numbers.

As far as Kobe? Well never know because Pippen developed under MJ.. and so did Kobe actually lol.. Well never know. He literally couldve been a journeyman. You cant just transpose players onto teams without looking at their circumstances. And since Kobe patterned his game from MJ, we would have to assume hed pattern his game off Dr. J or some other great from before him in this hypothetical. Its too messy at that point though.

And sorry for the pauk style essay lol

[Poochymama]

Im sorry, but this post is way, way too simplistic and doesnt have its roots grounded in reality.

First off you have to use context of what would happen in this scenario.

Rookie MJ would join the Lakers in the late 90s and be a promising young player alongside a very dominant Shaquille Oneal. We all know the offense wouldve still ran through Shaq, and MJ wouldnt have been given full reign to ball out like he did in his first year with the Bulls. Shaq wouldve been the undisputed man.

We all know MJ was a firery competitor and always wanted to be the best. Thats was his goal. To be the best. We all know MJ had a great work ethic, and we also know that he had a hard time trusting his teammates up until 6+ years into his career when Phil reigned him in and made him develop a trust in the system. He was very much seen as an individual type talent and not a true team player ala the greats before him Magic and Larry. That was the main knock on early MJ.

Now, you give a guy who wants to be the best to ever do it, who is insanely competitive and pushes others around him to work as hard as he did, a dominant entering his prime SHAQ and what happens?

They win 2-3 titles within the first 4-5 years easy.. and who gets the credit? Obviously Shaq. He would still feast on the subpar frontlines in th EAST and would still win FMVPs and be seen as the 'man' on those teams.

How does MJ respond to that?

Possessing many of the same traits Kobe does but to a larger than life degree(the real version-competitiveness, the ultimate dick, workaholic, physcotic confidence) MJ wouldve likely tried to get his share of the glory himself and wouldve gunned for FMVPs and to be the featured weapon etc.

Except MJ wouldve done it BETTER than Kobe and he wouldve actually won some of those awards over Shaq because he was actually that good. So say they win 2-3 titles with Shaq getting the glory and then they win their first one with MJ getting the FMVP and large share of the credit?

How does Shaq respond to that? The same Shaq that fueded with Penny.. and Kobe.. and Wade isnt going to fued with perhaps the most demanding and dickheaded player of all time? What?

Guarantee that relationship goes sour well before 5 titles, much less 8 or 10. Thats a joke because we SAW MJ get bored after winning three straight and retire to play baseball. But hes not going to get bored cakewalking to multiple chips with Shaq? MJ always wanted a challenge.

Not only that, but according to andgar, MJ left the league after his three chips because of a giant gambling conspiracy. And were going to act like that type of shit wouldnt affect his ability to stack titles? Having to leave the league under a guise in the middle of his prime because his competitive nature backfired on him(extreme addiction to gambling)?

Not only that but if you look at MJ's leadership.. it was largely built under his tenure with the Bulls where he had to fight it out with undermanned squads against legendary opponents like the C's and Bad Boy Pistons. He built that character and hunger to win through adversity and failing time and time again.. getting nailed in the me3dia for being too selfish and not being good enough. He BUILT that leadership.

It would not have been the same if he got it handed to him from the start. He wouldnt have learned and grown the same way as a player.

This stuff is delicate. It s not a video game where you add up imaginary numbers.

As far as Kobe? Well never know because Pippen developed under MJ.. and so did Kobe actually lol.. Well never know. He literally couldve been a journeyman. You cant just transpose players onto teams without looking at their circumstances. And since Kobe patterned his game from MJ, we would have to assume hed pattern his game off Dr. J or some other great from before him in this hypothetical. Its too messy at that point though.

And sorry for the pauk style essay lol

^^^

This is what happens when people let the personal bias cloud their judgement.

[tpols]

^^^

This is what happens when people let the personal bias cloud their judgement.

Care to explain where you disagree?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

^^^

This is what happens when people let the personal bias cloud their judgement.

This. My god tpols, you REALLY love Kobe man.

[SamuraiSWISH]

This. My god tpols, you REALLY love Kobe man.

Apparently a "Nets fan" too ... very similar to Heavincent. East coast people who defend Kobe like the fiercest of LA stans (YMF, AlphaWolf24, eliteballer, etc)

[poido123]

Maybe you were born in 01 or 02 so you probably don't know about the playoff series verses the Spurs those years.

In 02, the refs won that title for you?

[tpols]

Damn.. and I didnt even defend Kobe there.

You guys think Jordans too untouchable.

Honestly Im all ears to anything you disagree on, since youre probably more knowledgeable on the character traits and abilities and career paths of early shaq and early MJ.

Enlighten me if Im that off base.