ISH's #7 Player of Alltime

[PHILA]

27% and the sweet taste of victory.

Russell Rules: 11 Lessons on Leadership From the Twentieth Century's Greatest Winner - Bill Russell

[Deuce Bigalow]

One of the WORST arguments I have EVER read.

So, players like Shaq and Russell, who won 15 rings among them, and who were only MARGINALLY better FT shooters in BOTH the regular season, AND the post-season, are considered "winners", while Wilt is considered a "choker?"

So, let's conveniently overlook these facts. That a PRIME "scoring" Wilt averaged 32 ppg, 27 rpg, and shot .510 (in league's that averaged about .430 shooting) in his first six post-seasons (his first seven seasons) ...COMBINED! Or that in his first eight straight post-seasons (covering his first nine seasons), all he did was average 29.3 ppg, 26.6 rpg, 4.8 apg (yes, 4.8 apg) and on .518 shooting (in league's that averaged about .435 shooting)...COMBINED!

I tell you what...you find me ONE player, who EVER had even ONE post-season of 29.3 ppg, 26.6 rpg, 4.8 apg, and on .518 shooting. And yet, here was Wilt, who supposedly "declined" in his post-seasons, who AVERAGED that over the course of EIGHT straight post-seasons...COMBINED!

How about Wilt with entire post-seasons of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg (on .543 shooting), 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg? Or how about Wilt with post-season series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, and a staggering seven game series of 38.6 ppg, on .559 shooting, and with 23.0 rpg.Or how about Wilt with FOUR post-season series, just against Russell, of 30+ ppg...including a seven game series in the '65 ECF's in which he averaged 30 ppg AND 31 rpg? Or how about Wilt with FOUR post-season games of 50+ points (which is second to MJ's eight...all-time...in the post-season?) And one of them was a 56-35 game five in a best-of-series, and the other was a 50-35 game (on 22-42 shooting) against Russell in a "must-win" game five of the '60 ECF's.

Oh, and BTW, Wilt had FOUR 40-30 games, just against Russell, in his post-season career, including a 46-34 game in a "must-win" game five in the '66 ECF's. AND, in the '70 Finals, and on ONE leg, and in a "must-win" game, he hung a 45 point, on 20-27 shooting, 27 rebound game.

How about Wilt with TWO complete playoff series in which he AVERAGED a TRIPLE-DOUBLE? And in that post-season, all he did was average 21.7 ppg, 29.1 rpg, 9.2 apg, and on .579 shooting.

Defense? Of course the "anti-Wilt" clan with bring up Wilt's "decline" in the post-season...but how about these facts? In the '62 Finals, Russell shot 50% against the Lakers. However, in the '62 ECF's, and against Wilt, he was at about .420 shooting. In the '64 Finals, Wilt averaged 29 ppg, 27 rpg, and shot .517 against Russell. Meanwhile, Russell averaged 11 ppg and 25 rpg against Wilt. And while we don't have Russell's H2H FG% against Wilt, we do know that Russell shot .356 in his entire post-season...and half of those ten game came against Wilt.

In the '65 Finals, Russell hung an 18 ppg .702 FG% on the Lakers. However, in the previous round against Wilt...15 ppg on .475 shooting (while Wilt averaged a 30-31 series against Russell.) In the '66 Finals, Russell LED Boston in scoring with a 23.6 ppg average against the Lakers. BUT, against Wilt in the ECF's that season? 14 ppg (while Wilt hung a 28 ppg, 30 rpg, .509 series on Russell.)

In the '67 ECF's, Wilt outscored Russell, per game, 21.6 ppg to 10.2 ppg; outrebounded Russell, per game, 32.0 rpg to 23.0 rpg; outassisted Russell, per game, 10 apg to 6 apg; and outshot Russell in that series, .556 to .358 (and Russell had shot .454 during the regular season.) Then, in the Finals, and against Thurmond, Wilt outscored Nate, per game, 17.5 ppg to 14.3 ppg; outrebounded Nate, per game, 28.5 rpg to 26.7 rpg; and outshot Nate by a mind-boggling, .560 to .343 margin. BTW, Wilt squared of against Thurmond in three playoff series, and he outrebounded Nate in all three, as well as outshot Nate in all three by margins of .500 to .398, .550 to .392, and .560 to .343.

In the '68 regular season, Walt Bellamy shot .541. Against Wilt in the playoffs? How about .421???

In the '71 regular season, Kareem averaged 31.7 ppg on .577 shooting. Against a 34 year-old Wilt, who was a year removed from major surgery? 25 ppg on .481 shooting!

In the '72 regular season, Kareem averaged 34.8 ppg on .574 shooting. In the WCF's, Wilt held Kareem to 33 ppg on .457 shooting, which included holding him to .414 over the course of the last four pivotal games of that series. And, BTW, Wilt also blocked some 15+ "unblockable" sky-hooks in that series.

Rebounding in the post-season? Wilt was NEVER outrebounded in ANY of his 29 playoff series. Included in those 29 series were eight against Russell, and in some of those, he just crushed Russell. He also outrebounded the likes of Reed, Bellamy, Lucas, Thurmond, and Kareem...in EVERY H2H series...some by massive margins.

But, yes, he should only be judged by his FT shooting in a few of those contests...

1-11 from the freethrow line in game 7 of the nba finals, and they lose
that is terrible, no matter how you look at it

and about the numbers you posted, of course nobody ever did post those kind of numbers like Wilt did, or never will because players like Shaq and Hakeem played in the 90s and 00s not the 60s

All I am saying is that he didnt play that good in game 7 of the '69 and '70 finals, thats all

[jlauber]

1-11 from the freethrow line in game 7 of the nba finals, and they lose
that is terrible, no matter how you look at it

and about the numbers you posted, of course nobody ever did post those kind of numbers like Wilt did, or never will because players like Shaq and Hakeem played in the 90s and 00s not the 60s

All I am saying is that he didnt play that good in game 7 of the '69 and '70 finals, thats all

Did you watch that game seven in the '70 Finals? Wilt was the ONLY Laker player who played a decent game. BTW, he was 1-8 from the line in the first half...and while he shot 5-10 from the field, his teammates collectively shot 33%...en route to a 69-42 halftime deficit. As it was, he scored 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, and with 24 rebounds (BTW, the "hero" Reed scored 4 points with 3 rebounds.)

BTW, Wilt averaged 22.5 rpg in 17 post-season games in his LAST year. That was the LAST time any other player ever averaged over 20 rpg in the playoffs. In fact, Kareem's 76-77 post-season, covering 11 games, is the next highest, at 17.7 rpg.

A couple of other points about Wilt's "inflated" stats in the 60's. In his 68-69 season, his new coach (the incompetent Butch Van Breda Kolf) didn't have a clue on how to use Wilt. He had him playing the high post, and even BENCHED him at times. PHILA posted one of the most comical quotes that I have ever read. "When we pass the ball to Wilt, he will score. But it is an ugly offense to watch." So, Van Breda Kolf preferred the shot-jacking of Elgin Baylor, who shot .447 in the regular season, and then an awful .385 in the playoffs (while Wilt shot .583 in the regular season, and .545 in the playoffs.)

In any case, it got so bad that SI ran an article claiming that Wilt could no longer score. Wilt then went out and put up a 60 point game, and followed that up a few days later with a 66 point game (on a staggering 29-35 shooting...which is, by far-and-away, the highest FG% for a 60+ point game in NBA history.) In fact, over the course of 17 straight games, Wilt averaged 31.1 ppg...including a 35 point game on Russell, which was his highest against Russell since his 46 point game in game five of the '66 ECF's, a 30 point game on ROY nd HOFer Elvin Hayes, and a 33 point game on Bob Rule (look him up...he was another "McAdoo.")

Unfortunately, Van Breda Kolf once again put the shackles on Wilt in the post-season. If there was ever a better example of his horrible coaching, it came in game seven of the Finals. Russell picked up his 5th foul early in the 4th quarter. In the next possession, LA went to Wilt, who went around Russell for an uncontested basket. That was about the last time Wilt touched the ball on the offensive end. And, of course, we know that Van Breda Kolf left Wilt on the bench in the last five minutes of that game...while Chamberlain's replacement, Mel Counts, missed a couple of shots down the stretch...en route to a 4-13 game (while Wilt had scored 18 points on 7-8 shooting in his 43 minutes...along with 27 rebounds)...in a two point loss.

Keep in mind, however, that the NBA averaged 112.3 in that 68-69 season. And yet, Wilt clearly proved that he could have scored 30+ ppg had he been allowed to do so. And, BTW, those two 60+ point games came against the same centers that Kareem would face the very next season. And Kareem never approached those numbers in his entire 20 year career. And, yet, those two games were just two of Wilt's 32 60+ point games.

Then, in the 69-70 season, Wilt's next new coach, Joe Mullaney, asked that Wilt become the focal point of the offense. In his first nine games, Wilt averaged a league-leading 32.2 ppg, and on 60% shooting (along with 20 rpg.) Included in those nine games were games of 33, 35, 37, 38, 42, and 43 points. That 38 point game was against reigning MVP Wes Unseld, and his 42 point game came against Bob Rule (once again, look him up), and his 37 point game was against 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle. He also had a 25 point game, on 9-14 shooting, with 25 rebounds, against rookie Lew Alcindor (Kareem)...in a game in which he decisively outplayed Kareem in EVERY facet of the game. Unfortunately, Wilt shredded his knee in that ninth game (in a game in which he had scored 33 points on 13-13 shooting), and was never the same again.

Here again, Wilt was on pace for a 30+ point season, in a league that Kareem averaged 28.8 ppg in. Furthermore, Kareem's high season was 34.8 ppg just a couple of years later.

Then, think about this...Kareem faced a way-past his prime Wilt in 27 of their 29 H2H games. And, Wilt was playing on a surgically repaired knee in those 27 games. And over the course of their 28 H2H games, Wilt held Kareem to an overall .464 FG%. This, from a Kareem who would average .559 over his entire career. AND, then, a 38 year old Kareem would dump 33 ppg on an eye-popping .634 FG%, over the course of FIVE H2H games against a 23 year old Hakeem. Included in those five games, were games of 42 and 46 points (on 21-30 shooting and in only 37 minutes.) Even in the playoffs, Kareem averaged 27 ppg against Sampson and Hakeem. In fact, Kareem, from ages 38 thru 41 shot .599 against Hakeem-led teams, covering 22 games. And we know that Kareem also hung a 40 point game on rookie Hakeem in the 84-85 season, too. Not only that, but within a few games of that 46 point explosion against Hakeem, Kareem also murdered Ewing in a game in which he outscored Patrick, 40-9 (and outshot him, 15-22 to 3-17.)

Then, think about this... A PRIME "scoring" Wilt had THREE games of 50+ points on Willis Reed (and several more of 40+), with a HIGH of 58 points. And Chamberlain also had THREE games of 60+ points against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy (and a season of 55 ppg), with a HIGH of 73 points! And Wilt also had several 30+ games, in a limited number of games in his "scoring seasons" against 6-11 HOFer Nate Thurmond, including one game in which he outscored Nate, 45-13.

Now, Kareem faced all of those guys many times in his career, and he never came close to games like that against them. In fact, he faced Thurmond in 50+ H2H games, and his high game was only 34 points. In fact, he probably shot well under 45% against Nate in those 50+ H2H games (and in three straight playoff series, he shot .486, .405, and .428 against Thurmond.)

How come a 38 year old Kareem could just devour players like Hakeem (with THREE games of 40+), and on staggering FG%'s...and yet, he struggled mightily against a way-past his prime Wilt, and an aging Thurmond? And how come Kareem, who faced many of the same centers that Wilt faced, could not come close to the domination that a PRIME Wilt bombed those centers with?