The Harden trade was still a disaster. Don't kid yourselves.

[DMAVS41]

Roles and gameplan are great

But talent is talent

Talent finds a way to succeed

Tell that to the Clippers...

[Young X]

No they don't...they don't grow as much as player with Harden still there. I don't know why you people can't grasp this. He would not have allowed those 3 guys to play at their optimal level...and would have continued to hurt the defense and need the ball way too often.

Blaming the WB injury on the Harden trade is too big of a stretch. For all we know...WB could have gotten hurt way worse if Harden was on the team...this just isn't a logical argument.

The 13 Thunder didn't need anything else. They had the best team when healthy.

Again, you are telling me...that if you were looking at the Thunder currently and Harden never played there...you would be thinking that the Thunder should trade for Harden?

There is no way you actually believe this...he makes so little sense on this team.

It's the moves after the Harden trade...combined with injuries...that have hurt the Thunder.

What are the odds of that Beverly/Westbrook situation still happening if Harden doesn't go to the Rockets?

Houston & Beverly likely don't make the playoffs and face the Thunder in the 1st round.

Not to mention, it's extremely unlikely that a player who at the time never missed a single game in the NBA, college or high school (Westbrook) gets injured if everything plays out again.

HARDEN was the reason OKC reached the level they did in 2012. They went to a whole other level offensively with him on the floor. His ascension to star level was the difference.

With the way you talk about his fit on the Thunder you would swear they weren't 3 wins away from winning the championship. A couple different bounces in games 2, 3 and 4 and they probably beat Miami.

[GIF REACTION]

Tell that to the Clippers...

James Harden is an MVP level talent

Only Paul and Griffin are comparable

[DMAVS41]

What are the odds of that Beverly/Westbrook situation still happening if Harden doesn't go to the Rockets?

Houston & Beverly likely don't make the playoffs and face the Thunder in the 1st round.

Not to mention, it's extremely unlikely that a player who at the time never missed a single game in the NBA, college or high school (Westbrook) gets injured if everything plays out again.

HARDEN was the reason OKC reached the level they did in 2012. They went to a whole other level offensively with him on the floor. His ascension to star level was the difference.

With the way you talk about his fit on the Thunder you would swear they weren't 3 wins away from winning the championship. A couple different bounces in games 2, 3 and 4 and they probably beat Miami.

I'm not going to get into the injury stuff because that just isn't connected enough at all for me. I could just counter and say...what are the odds Harden is willing to take a back seat to WB/Durant long term and focuses on defense and provides the defense this team badly needed to actually win.

I don't act like they weren't close. I act like I was able to watch the team and see a team that I thought didn't make a lot of sense as it went forward because Harden wasn't well suited to play the 6th man.

Now, I'm really curious about some stuff from you here because you seem to not at all be consistent with your arguments.

You have held onto this belief that the Clippers have never had much of a chance to do anything in the playoffs because the talent doesn't fit together great and the defense just wasn't good enough. What did you say? I think you said something like;

"you have to be able to play championship level defense and consistently get stops against the best teams"

Something like that.

Then why are you so high on the Thunder? The 12 Thunder were the 2nd best offense and 11th best defense.

Why does that championship level defense not matter here?

Do you really think it's random that the Thunder went from having the 15th and 11th ranked defenses to the 4th and 6th ranked defenses after Harden left?

And what kind of players are you filling in around them with those 4 guys taking up all the cap with a notoriously cheap ownership group that doesn't want to pay tax?

[GIF REACTION]

2012 was a very frantic lockout season

I don't know if you can hang the defense all on Harden

[warriorfan]

Harden isn't a lead man starting player

doesn't have the defense nor consistent level of energy

he is best suited as 6th man of the year where you can limit his minutes on court and get him to feast on second units

[dhsilv]

The Warriors are nothing like the Thunder would be with WB, Durant, and Harden. The Warriors have one ball dominant player...the Thunder would have 3. It's nothing like it...and the defense would be a disaster in OKC with those 3 playing big minutes.

The Heat made it work because of defense...and because Bosh took a large back seat that nobody on the Thunder ultimately would have.

The Thunder did screw up...it just wasn't the Harden trade. It was Presti riding with Fisher/Butler in 14 when there were so many solid sg's out there that could have helped and were definitely attainable.

They screwed up with the Waiters pick up...probably the Kanter signing as well...although I'm more hopeful than most on this.

They look like they screwed up with Donovan at a coach as well.

The Harden trade actually set themselves up nicely. The best Thunder team to date has still been the 13 Thunder...can't blame Presti there...just fluke injury to WB.

But Presti ruined the 14 Thunder like I described above. Last year was ruined by the KD injury...and this year it looks like the combination of Waiters, Kanter, and Donovan....with still no sg that makes a ton of sense as a starter....are large problems.

But I don't get the Harden stuff anymore honestly. Now, I think Harden takes too much hate on here because he's a star player and what he's done in Houston is impressive, but I don't know who the **** can watch Harden these last 3 years and think he's well suited to play 3rd option on a team with WB/Durant that badly needs perimeter defense and off ball movement/shooting.

It just doesn't make sense at all. Maybe they should have traded WB, but one of them had to go...I don't see how everyone pretends otherwise. There were already chemistry issues and Harden, very clearly, wanted to be the man somewhere else.

Worse case sign him and then trade him for a better fit...you never pass on having a top 10 player in the game on your team unless you can get another top 10 guy.

[DMAVS41]

2012 was a very frantic lockout season

I don't know if you can hang the defense all on Harden

I'm not hanging it all on Harden...it's more the type of team they were going to have.

They were 15th the year before.

You just aren't having a very good defense going forward with Harden, Durant, and WB playing by far the most minutes on your team....even with a stud like Ibaka.

[dhsilv]

Harden isn't a lead man starting player

doesn't have the defense nor consistent level of energy

he is best suited as 6th man of the year where you can limit his minutes on court and get him to feast on second units

He just carried a team to the freaking conference finals...

This stuff has to stop. This is a top 5 nba player. When he's playing well, last year, he plays passable defense. He just proved he can be the ONLY play maker on a team that makes the "final four", in the west, and did so with his second best player hurt the entire season.

There's nothing wrong with not liking how he plays or just disliking him. But cut the crap on him not being a top tier player.

[DMAVS41]

Worse case sign him and then trade him for a better fit...you never pass on having a top 10 player in the game on your team unless you can get another top 10 guy.

That would have been another option...I'd have been fine with that.

Really disagree with the bold though...that makes no sense to me...I could think of plenty scenarios in which I wouldn't want another star back when I'm trading for my star player.

Also, I'm not sure Harden was a top 10 player in 12...he certainly didn't have the trade value around the league as a top 10 player.

Remember, he was not the Harden of the last few years...and he was coming off that horrid finals performance. Acting like everyone thought of him as a top 10 player is not accurate.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Dude...i'ts common knowledge natural born LOSERS like Harden, Howard, Deron Williams, Carmelo and Derrick Rose will NEVER win a ring..

[DMAVS41]

Harden isn't a lead man starting player

doesn't have the defense nor consistent level of energy

he is best suited as 6th man of the year where you can limit his minutes on court and get him to feast on second units

could not disagree more. I guess him carrying the Rockets to the 2nd best record in the West last year never happened.

[warriorfan]

I'm not hanging it all on Harden...it's more the type of team they were going to have.

They were 15th the year before.

You just aren't having a very good defense going forward with Harden, Durant, and WB playing by far the most minutes on your team....even with a stud like Ibaka.

with sefolosha, perkins and Ibaka you can have a good defense

[warriorfan]

Dude...i'ts common knowledge natural born LOSERS like Harden, Howard, Deron Williams, Carmelo and Derrick Rose will NEVER win a ring..

/end thread

[dhsilv]

[/B]

That would have been another option...I'd have been fine with that.

Really disagree with the bold though...that makes no sense to me...I could think of plenty scenarios in which I wouldn't want another star back when I'm trading for my star player.

Also, I'm not sure Harden was a top 10 player in 12...he certainly didn't have the trade value around the league as a top 10 player.

Remember, he was not the Harden of the last few years...and he was coming off that horrid finals performance. Acting like everyone thought of him as a top 10 player is not accurate.

He was clearly on a path to being the best shooting guard in the nba. I doubt they panicked over a bad playoff run, these are professionals, not fans. You just don't give up young talent like him, top 10 or top 25....doesn't matter.