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Old 07-21-2017, 02:27 PM   #76
NBAGOAT
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Default Re: I'll just say this about the Jordan/James comparison..

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
Do I believe that MJ wins more than 1 title in place of Lebron during that time?

Of course...is that somehow controversial with you clowns?

It isn't the best comparison given the they don't play the same position.

I'm just curious why people think Lebron is a better player than Jordan.

Jordan was a better scorer and defender, quite easily, in my opinion.

Lebron is a better passer and rebounder, but that just isn't worth close to enough to make up the other gaps.

Jordan was a better clutch player as well...and better off the ball.

Lebron can be argued, perhaps, to have a greater career some day, but in terms of just the players themselves during their primes.

Jordan offered more on both ends...

Most of wat you said is agreed upon. However some will challenge the better defender point for peaks(not me)
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Old 07-21-2017, 02:33 PM   #77
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Default Re: I'll just say this about the Jordan/James comparison..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gus Hemmingway
LeBron vs Jordan (Regular Season, Playoffs, Finals)



Regular Season


27/7/7 vs. 30/6/5




Playoffs

28/9/8 vs 33/6/6



Finals

28/10/8 vs 33/6/6




Is Jordanís 3-5 more points worth more than LeBrons 2-4 rebound advantage and 1-2 assists advantage?

As a primary option? Yes.

One, you're inflating the value of rebounds and assists because those are numbers you can simply point to where he's ahead of MJ, while deflating the value of scoring. Dominant scoring is the most important trait for a first option.....and Jordan was better at it. Furthermore, it is possible for a team to win a game while being out-assisted and out-rebounded. Not easy, but doable. So inflating the value of his rebounds and assists as if those directly contribute to the box-score is fool-hardy. As it stands, MJ is a slightly better offensive rebounder....in an era not tailormade for perimeter players....which means he's better at rebounds that directly affect immediate scoring chances. Who gives a **** if Lebron has 1-2 more defensive rebounds on his end of the floor?

Second, the triangle offense is predicated on ball movement and not one player dominating the ball and amassing huge assist numbers. We've seen MJ in a role where he played 'Bron-ball'....which would be the 89 season when he closed the year averaging a triple double. So it's not as if MJ didn't possess the ability to fill the stat-sheet if the system was built around him being ball-dominant. Eventually he had a team around him that fulfilled duties like rebounding( Grant, Rodman) and ballhandling/playmaking( Pippen) in a system that freed him up to play off-ball, score at a dominant rate, but still allow his teammates to play to capacity. That fostered superior teamwork, which is why the Bulls didn't fall off a cliff in 1994. It's why Pippen and Grant's stats didn't explode off the page when he left, because his off-ball ability allowed them success in their own right, and allowed them to remain competent on their own when he left.
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Old 07-21-2017, 02:37 PM   #78
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Default Re: I'll just say this about the Jordan/James comparison..

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Originally Posted by Dragonyeuw
As a primary option? Yes.

One, you're inflating the value of rebounds and assists because those are numbers you can simply point to where he's ahead of MJ, while deflating the value of scoring. Dominant scoring is the most important trait for a first option.....and Jordan was better at it. Furthermore, it is possible for a team to win a game while being out-assisted and out-rebounded. Not easy, but doable. So inflating the value of his rebounds and assists as if those directly contribute to the box-score is fool-hardy. As it stands, MJ is a slightly better offensive rebounder....in an era not tailormade for perimeter players....which means he's better at rebounds that directly affect immediate scoring chances. Who gives a **** if Lebron has 1-2 more defensive rebounds on his end of the floor?

Second, the triangle offense is predicated on ball movement and not one player dominating the ball and amassing huge assist numbers. We've seen MJ in a role where he played 'Bron-ball'....which would be the 89 season when he closed the year averaging a triple double. So it's not as if MJ didn't possess the ability to fill the stat-sheet if the system was built around him being ball-dominant. Eventually he had a team around him that fulfilled duties like rebounding( Grant, Rodman) and ballhandling/playmaking( Pippen) in a system that freed him up to play off-ball, score at a dominant rate, but still allow his teammates to play to capacity. That fostered superior teamwork, which is why the Bulls didn't fall off a cliff in 1994. It's why Pippen and Grant's stats didn't explode off the page when he left, because his off-ball ability allowed them success in their own right, and allowed them to remain competent on their own when he left.




If Jordanís stats were so much more valuable, why did the Bulls win 55 games without him but the Cavs and Heat went to the lottery without LeBron?




That evidence by itself proves LeBrons rebounds and assists are more important than Jordanís 3 more points
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Old 07-21-2017, 02:45 PM   #79
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Default Re: I'll just say this about the Jordan/James comparison..

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Originally Posted by Gus Hemmingway
If Jordan’s stats were so much more valuable, why did the Bulls win 55 games without him but the Cavs and Heat went to the lottery without LeBron?




That evidence by itself proves LeBrons rebounds and assists are more important than Jordan’s 3 more points

Quite literally explained in my final paragraph, posted below for your convenience:

"That fostered superior teamwork, which is why the Bulls didn't fall off a cliff in 1994. It's why Pippen and Grant's stats didn't explode off the page when he left, because his off-ball ability allowed them success in their own right, and allowed them to remain competent on their own when he left."

Your 'evidence' that extra rebounds and assists automatically equates to those scenarios is bullshit( of course, consider the source). The Cavs lost a number of players in addition to Lebron that year. The Heat missed the playoffs in 2015 because Wade and Bosh missed significant time.....then made it in 2016 and came within one game of the ECFs........without Lebron. Effectively the 2016 heat did the same thing the 94 Bulls did.....lose in 7 in the second round.....and neither Wade or Bosh were in their primes as Pippen and Grant were in 94.
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Old 07-21-2017, 02:45 PM   #80
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Default Re: I'll just say this about the Jordan/James comparison..

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Originally Posted by NBAGOAT
Most of wat you said is agreed upon. However some will challenge the better defender point for peaks(not me)

Lebron was an all time great team defender...probably still can be in the right situation, but he just doesn't have that lateral movement and quickness that a guy like MJ did to lock guys up.

The problem here...just talking basketball...is that MJ was better on both sides of the ball...was better without the ball in his hands...and was the better crunch time / clutch performer.

Making a basketball argument is going to be very difficult here.
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Old 07-21-2017, 02:51 PM   #81
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Default Re: I'll just say this about the Jordan/James comparison..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gus Hemmingway
LeBron vs Jordan (Regular Season, Playoffs, Finals)



Regular Season


27/7/7 vs. 30/6/5




Playoffs

28/9/8 vs 33/6/6



Finals

28/10/8 vs 33/6/6




Is Jordanís 3-5 more points worth more than LeBrons 2-4 rebound advantage and 1-2 assists advantage?



To answer the bold (even though it is a flawed question)...absolutely. What Jordan was able to do trumps what I think is a rather meaningless increase in rebounds for sure.

And Jordan's far superior off ball play trumps the assist advantage as well.

But a straight up raw stats comparison...even advanced stats...is going to leave a lot to be desired here due to the different eras in which they played.

Lebron has been playing in an era that is pretty much perfectly suited to perimeter players. You can't be physical, you can't even really contest jumpers anymore for fear of landing space violations.

So I'd rather talk about actual skillsets because trying to figure out what MJ would average today.
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Old 07-21-2017, 02:56 PM   #82
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Default Re: I'll just say this about the Jordan/James comparison..

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMAVS41
Lebron was an all time great team defender...probably still can be in the right situation, but he just doesn't have that lateral movement and quickness that a guy like MJ did to lock guys up.

The problem here...just talking basketball...is that MJ was better on both sides of the ball...was better without the ball in his hands...and was the better crunch time / clutch performer.

Making a basketball argument is going to be very difficult here.

Well i personally find team/help defense more valuable. My order of importance goes rim protection, team/help defense/switchability, man to.man defense. I have mj's defense overall because of career consistency sjnce bron's elite period was only 09-13 and he has some negative years even for some. Its not a very strong opinion however since judging defense is just watching film
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Old 07-21-2017, 03:13 PM   #83
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Default Re: I'll just say this about the Jordan/James comparison..

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArbitraryWater
I think it's funny how for years Jordan stans shot down the Bryant fans' argument as chilidish, low IQ, and unworthy, and now in 2017, they are reverting to the SAME train of thought when it comes to James.

When they used to bump out the big advanced stats, numerical evidence and play on the big stage, they are now forced to use simpleton rhetoric such as rings, finals record, leadership aka intangibles, and a bunch of other things that cannot be proven or don't apply.

James now has by most filters surpassed him as a player, on raw and advanced stats, with the peak season, post-season and finals (2017), and the Jordan crowd is reduced to nothing more than what the Bryant crowd was circa 2010, buzz words.

They have completely abandoned the cold hard facts department, since James is now a realistically better basketball player, and would be a more accomplished one too, had Durant not commited the biggest individual ***** move in sports history.

Sorry, kid, but Jordan dominates Lebron statistically as well, I don't know what kind of crack Tyrone is selling you but Jordan bests Lebron in career averages in both RS/POs and with peak play, not to mention accolades, whether it's rings, FMVPs, DPOY, MVP etc...

The only argument you have is Lebron's averages vs Golden State in the Finals but may I remind you that Jordan averaged 40+ points 9 rebounds 6 assists on elite efficiency vs a high-powered offense...and he did it at a way slower pace as well. Oh and he won in convincing fashion.

30/6/5 > 27/7/7 (31.5/6/5 if you take away MJ coming back at age 38) RS
33/6/6 > 28/9/7 Playoffs

Jordan averaged 34/6/7/2/1 on 50/39/84 shooting over a 3-peat in the Playoffs, mind you that he did this in an era where defense was actually a thing, Lebron's best championship run is 30/10/6 on 50/26/74 shooting, the other two he averaged 26 ppg, he has 0 title runs with a WS/48 of above .300 while Jordan has two. I mean, MJ averaged 31/6/8 with 2.4 stls 1.4 blks on 60%TS, Lebron doesn't have a title run shooting 60%+TS or higher because he is a terrible FT shooter.
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Old 07-21-2017, 03:19 PM   #84
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Default Re: I'll just say this about the Jordan/James comparison..

Quote:
Originally Posted by warriorfan
It's worth about 3 Finals wins/MVPs more
That's the same difference between LeBron & Curry
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