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Old 01-07-2015, 03:34 PM   #286
ralph_i_el
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain: 24 Inch Vertical

Quote:
Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW
What basketball fans had to say after watching that video:





















Among many many others...

So what were you saying about Andre Drummond again?

That's interesting.. nobody else sees it.

You mad?

90% of the video is him scoring on centers a full head shorter than him that look like they all weigh 215lbs. Or shooting jumpers that aren't even contested.

Today's players wouldn't be afraid to send him to the line either.

I'm currently RE-watching the hour long "scouting tool" dudes are literally standing still with their hands down while he goes right by them for dunks. Am I supposed to be impressed? This just in, every team today has multiple big bodies that would be hacking the shit out of him if he was as good as you say.

Nobody is saying that Wilt wouldn't be a great player in any era. This mythologizing has gone way to far though. The same shit is happening with MJ now.

If Dwight got to post up a skinny Kris Humphries every game he'd look like a Greek god too
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Old 01-07-2015, 04:05 PM   #288
ralph_i_el
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain: 24 Inch Vertical

Quote:
Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW
The sad thing is you probably have no clue who Wilt is posting up against in the footage - nor how tall or heavy they actually were in real life and how it would compare to today's players. Also you are totally ignoring Wilt's own transition/2-person/offensive rebound game. You've failed to bring it up every time. That's like all today's centers know how to do, and Wilt looks a hell of a lot more dominant than they do at their own game. Him posting up in iso plays and CREATING his own driving baseline, middle, or fade away shots from scratch in a half court set is icing on the cake, half of today's bigs aren't even capable of post-up play. When the double, triple, and interior zones happened is when he passed to the open man, you want to see footage of him getting collapsed on then watch his passing clips again and pay the **** attention, the double and triple teams are there. If you want to see a mix of him getting double and triple teamed than you'll get one eventually when I incorporate "all-known" passing highlights. He was smart enough to hit the open man.

And Wilt makes everyone look undersized. He dwarfs Kareem and Artis Gilmore in all that footage. Two guys who would list 7 foot 4 today and are taller than anyone in the league. Dwarfed. Who the **** is supposed to look big next to Wilt? You have impossibly high expectations of his competition if you expect them to look significant next to him. Half of is competition are bona fide freak athletes themselves. Today's players would look just as useless and small.

Why would I know who Wilt is posting up? Im not 60 years old. I watch modern basketball and I watch a ****ing lot of it. I can estimate how big someone is by looking at them. I'm going through his playoff opponents on bball ref trying to find ANYONE he played against listed at 240 or over. So far I found 2 in his first 8 seasons.

How would Demarcus Cousins fare if only a handful of guys in the league weighed 240? Right now the wizards have three guys listed at 260 or above, and 2 are legit post players.

Stick Nene in that era and he averages 35 a game.

Last edited by ralph_i_el : 01-07-2015 at 04:10 PM.
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Old 01-07-2015, 04:33 PM   #290
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain: 24 Inch Vertical

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Originally Posted by stanlove1111
I don't know why people keep showing this picture trying to prove something. Its impossible to tell how high he got up here.

You can make out the back of the rim and it's clear that his outstretched side is close to shoulder length with the rim.

Wilt has at least a 36" leap in this video.
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Old 01-07-2015, 06:08 PM   #291
jongib369
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain: 24 Inch Vertical

Quote:
Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW
Dude... bball reference isn't going to tell you how heavy or how tall his opponents were in comparison to today.

Wanna know how much David Robinson weighed as a rookie? 227lbs. NBA inflated that to 235. The NBA has been a marketing machine since the 1980's. Modern players list info is skewed to make them list larger than life. In Wilt's time, not the case, and bball reference is an archive of stats - not player measurements.

If these guys played in the 60's bball reference would list them like this:

KG 6-11 217lbs

Joakim Noah 6-10 223lbs

Tyson Chandler 6-11 224lbs

Nerlens Noel 6-9 205lbs

Because it was their rookie measurements... and the league in the past just took that and it was your list info. No fudging, no bother re-adjusting late in their careers aside from a few isolated occurences.

Bill Russell for example, listed 215, his own rookie weight - played at 230 the majority of his career, and weighed as much as 240 in the latter half.

Wayne Embry, dunno what he's listed on there, 240? He played at 270 or 280.

Wes Unseld, also dunno what he's listed on there, 245? He played at 265-280.

Artis Gilmore listed 240 on bball reference, weighed as much as 285.

Nate Thurmond is chalked in at 225, but as a rookie he actually weighed 229, and weighed 245 for most of his playing career

Bellamy is cited at 265 in newspapers in the 70's, what's he listed at 225?

Bob Lanier weighed 300lbs as a rookie, he actually cut weight to get down as low as 260, when Wilt played him in the early 70's he was 280-290.

BBall reference isn't a database on player size. It's a database on player stats ... and has uncited list info. And the trends of how list info is created have changed dramatically from Wilt's time to today's time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph_i_el
Why would I know who Wilt is posting up? Im not 60 years old. I watch modern basketball and I watch a ****ing lot of it. I can estimate how big someone is by looking at them. I'm going through his playoff opponents on bball ref trying to find ANYONE he played against listed at 240 or over. So far I found 2 in his first 8 seasons.

How would Demarcus Cousins fare if only a handful of guys in the league weighed 240? Right now the wizards have three guys listed at 260 or above, and 2 are legit post players.

Stick Nene in that era and he averages 35 a game.

So you don't make yourself look silly. Why hold such strong opinions if you haven't done any real research or have any intent to? You can't possibly think anyone is going to take your opinion seriously if you boast about not knowing as much as the person you're arguing with on a given subject.
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Old 01-07-2015, 06:58 PM   #292
ralph_i_el
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain: 24 Inch Vertical

Quote:
Originally Posted by jongib369
So you don't make yourself look silly. Why hold such strong opinions if you haven't done any real research or have any intent to? You can't possibly think anyone is going to take your opinion seriously if you boast about not knowing as much as the person you're arguing with on a given subject.

What I'm arguing is that Wilt's greatness is blown out of proportion by people who never actually experienced his career (which they haven't). I've watched more wilt footage than most BBall fans. No one has disputed how shitty the D was in those videos.

I'm not disputing that Wilt is bigger and stronger than almost every athlete ever. I'm saying that being that big and strong against the guys in these videos is not the same as being big and strong against the NBA players of today, who are drawn from a bigger population and are motivated by huge salaries.

I know you guys don't believe it, but I watched the hour long Wilt video twice all the way through. Most of the guys he's being guarded by do not look as big and strong as the guys I see on TV every night.

Dwight would look like a god playing against a random big 10 team. That doesn't mean he isnt a dominant NBA player. It doesn't mean the big 10 dudes can't play. It just means that players will look very different based on the level of their competition. Wilt was a 30-50 ppg scorer in his day. He is NOT a 50 point...or 40 point....or 35 ppg scorer in today's league. Could he be MVP? Win a scoring title or 4? Sure! But he isn't going to be ragdolling the other center every night.

My opinion (if you give it any weight) if I watched that hour of footage and had to predict his peak in the NBA today (like we do with draft picks all the time) I'd say he could top out at 27-14-4 on elite efficiency. Far from the basketball Jesus that some folks would have us beleive.

I don't want to give anyone the idea that I don't think Wilt could be dominant today.
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Old 01-07-2015, 07:11 PM   #293
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain: 24 Inch Vertical

Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph_i_el
What I'm arguing is that Wilt's greatness is blown out of proportion by people who never actually experienced his career (which they haven't). I've watched more wilt footage than most BBall fans. No one has disputed how shitty the D was in those videos.

I'm not disputing that Wilt is bigger and stronger than almost every athlete ever. I'm saying that being that big and strong against the guys in these videos is not the same as being big and strong against the NBA players of today, who are drawn from a bigger population and are motivated by huge salaries.

I know you guys don't believe it, but I watched the hour long Wilt video twice all the way through. Most of the guys he's being guarded by do not look as big and strong as the guys I see on TV every night.

Dwight would look like a god playing against a random big 10 team. That doesn't mean he isnt a dominant NBA player. It doesn't mean the big 10 dudes can't play. It just means that players will look very different based on the level of their competition. Wilt was a 30-50 ppg scorer in his day. He is NOT a 50 point...or 40 point....or 35 ppg scorer in today's league. Could he be MVP? Win a scoring title or 4? Sure! But he isn't going to be ragdolling the other center every night.

My opinion (if you give it any weight) if I watched that hour of footage and had to predict his peak in the NBA today (like we do with draft picks all the time) I'd say he could top out at 27-14-4 on elite efficiency. Far from the basketball Jesus that some folks would have us beleive.

I don't want to give anyone the idea that I don't think Wilt could be dominant today.


Inb4 jlauber replies with cherrypicked stats that has nothing to do with what you said.
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Old 01-07-2015, 07:16 PM   #294
ralph_i_el
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain: 24 Inch Vertical

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Originally Posted by Asukal

Inb4 jlauber replies with cherrypicked stats that has nothing to do with what you said.
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Old 01-07-2015, 07:31 PM   #295
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Default Re: Wilt Chamberlain: 24 Inch Vertical

Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph_i_el
What I'm arguing is that Wilt's greatness is blown out of proportion by people who never actually experienced his career (which they haven't). I've watched more wilt footage than most BBall fans. No one has disputed how shitty the D was in those videos.

I'm not disputing that Wilt is bigger and stronger than almost every athlete ever. I'm saying that being that big and strong against the guys in these videos is not the same as being big and strong against the NBA players of today, who are drawn from a bigger population and are motivated by huge salaries.

I know you guys don't believe it, but I watched the hour long Wilt video twice all the way through. Most of the guys he's being guarded by do not look as big and strong as the guys I see on TV every night.

Dwight would look like a god playing against a random big 10 team. That doesn't mean he isnt a dominant NBA player. It doesn't mean the big 10 dudes can't play. It just means that players will look very different based on the level of their competition. Wilt was a 30-50 ppg scorer in his day. He is NOT a 50 point...or 40 point....or 35 ppg scorer in today's league. Could he be MVP? Win a scoring title or 4? Sure! But he isn't going to be ragdolling the other center every night.

My opinion (if you give it any weight) if I watched that hour of footage and had to predict his peak in the NBA today (like we do with draft picks all the time) I'd say he could top out at 27-14-4 on elite efficiency. Far from the basketball Jesus that some folks would have us beleive.

I don't want to give anyone the idea that I don't think Wilt could be dominant today.

That's actually not too bad, albeit, a prime Wilt would likely certainly get more than 14 rpg (hell Kevin Love grabbed 15 rpg in 35 mpg a couple of years ago.)

In any case... you have probably watched a lot of footage of Kareem then, as well...since there is a lot more out there.

What kind of numbers would a PRIME Kareem put up today? And keep in mind that a 38 and 39 year old Kareem, in 10 straight H2H games with a 23-24 year old Hakeem...averaged 32 ppg on a .630 FG%, with games of 40, 43, and 46 points (and in only 37 minutes, all while shooting 21-30 from the field.) Oh, and about the same time he dumped that 46 point game on Hakeem, he shelled Patrick Ewing by a 40-9 margin (outshooting Patrick by a 15-22 to 3-17 margin.)
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