Can somebody please explain why Russell is a GOAT and Rodman isn't?

[livinglegend]

Did they win a chip doe, or even got to the ECFs

Russell isn't a top 5 IMO, that's the whole point of my thread.

He's massively overrated.

They lost a close 7 games series against the Knicks who almost won the championship. Put Kobe on that team, they win the championship.

[livinglegend]

Comprehension > you

Russell's team was stacked compared to his competition, Bob Cousy was a great back then. YouTube Cousy for the lulz. Cousy would be garbage today. MJ had a great team, guess what, you need a great team to win., ask LeBron, Magic, Bird...

OTOH, if Mike is not their leading scorer and getting those hard buckets at the end of Finals games, they weren't winning 6. If MJ was their 4th best scorer, you think they win? Yeah but the Bulls were hella stacked

Hoops is a two way game, one dimensional ballers ain't GOAT in my opinion.

Jordan s team was as stacked. They had the 2 best perimeter guys on that team , the refs, great role players ( Rodman who is being compared to Russell, Kukoc best euro, great shooters...). Any team that can win 55 games without their best player is stacked as ****.

[ILLsmak]

Yeah, I'm one of those who think Bill Russell is overrated and gets way too much credit for those Celtics 60s dynasty. Winning 11 chips is a great accomplishment but let's not get carried away. First of all, his competition was crap compared to the modern era of basketball. Bob Cousy was a "great" back then, nuff said. OK, when you ask the Russell junkies what exactly makes him the GOAT when you get past the TEAM accomplishment of 11 titles in 13 years, they tell you he was a GOAT defender and rebounder, he was smart and had all the intangibles and he affected his team's offense not by scoring but by his passing, grabbing offensive boards and his stellar outlet passes...that's cool and all but that's Dennis Rodman too.

Those of you old enough to remember, Dennis was a beast of a defender, he could guard bigs but was also quick enough in his prime to guard wingmen too. He defended against Shaq, DRobinson, Zo, PEwing, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley and also defended Bird, Magic, Pippen and Jordan Bran Stans, THAT'S versatility. Dennis was huge in the mid to late 90s Bulls on the OFFENSIVE side of the ball, never having a play run for him but he'd grab ORebounds for putbacks or give the Bulls extra posessions. Plus, those defensive rebounds became pinpoint outlet passes to start the Bulls lethal fastbreaks. He regularly would end up with 10 plus points with 20 something boards with a couple of blocks to boot. Dennis, contrary to popular belief, was really smart on the court. He would get in your head to get you off your game, he ran the most complex offensive system, the triangle O, to perfection. He was a great passer.

If we gon' give Russell so much love for his defense, rebounds, blocks and intangibles, why not the Worm? You wanna talk chips? 5 outta 6 ain't chopped liver, and he did this in a much tougher era against the likes of Bird, Magic, Jordan, Shaq, Hakeem, DRobinson, KMalone, CBarkley, JWorthy etc. That's an impressive list. To reiterate, he wasn't his team's first or second or even third scoring option, but Bill Russell wasn't either

What gives???

I don't think Rodman is as good as Russell, but I think an all time team with him slotted as PF opposed to another all-time great would probably perform better or as well.

Dude was an amazing player, period. Kind of an amazing person, too, because he didn't give in to anyone. He never really made bad plays, either. I mean, on purpose... like Westbrook or Kobe would. He played good ball, he understood ball, and took basically nothing from the other 4 guys on his squad.

Really, he deserves to be in the conversation with guys like Russell as ultimate intangible players, but I think Russell was on a higher level. Could be wrong, but that's just the 'historian' in me speaking... although I hate to agree with people who comment on something I haven't personally witnessed. Gonna give them the benefit of the doubt for that one.

Rodman was a beast, tho. Top player, period. Anyone who calls him a glorified role player is a bball nub.

-Smak

[NumberSix]

I'm one of the leading proponents of Bill Russell being the most overrated player of all time. Dude is basically Joakim Noah.

[mr.big35]

I'm one of the leading proponents of Bill Russell being the most overrated player of all time. Dude is basically Joakim Noah.

but he is the GOAT in his era. just like Shaq is in this era.

[NumberSix]

but he is the GOAT in his era. just like Shaq is in this era.

I'd agree that he is one of the best in his own era. That's fair. I wouldn't dream of saying he's close to the player Hakeem was for example.

[fpliii]

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Pace

PER adjusts pace...and for guys that have similar play styles, isn't too bad of a stat to use here, imo

Russell: 18.9
Rodman: 14.6

Also wanted to correct myself. Russ actually has 4,100 assists to Rodman's 2,600...

[fpliii]

PER adjusts pace...and for guys that have similar play styles, isn't too bad of a stat to use here.

Russell: 18.9
Rodman: 14.6

Also wanted to correct myself. Russell actually has 4,100 assists to Rodman's 2,600...

PER doesn't exist pre-78 anyway, since we don't have all of ORB, BLK, STL, TOV before then. basketball-reference.com zeroes them out:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/per.html

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

PER doesn't exist pre-78 anyway, since we don't have all of ORB, BLK, STL, TOV before then. basketball-reference.com zeroes them out:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/per.html

Pretty much..

Kinda sad we dont have these stats recorded. Wilt and especially Russell would be regarded much higher, imo.

[BoutPractice]

I'm one of the leading proponents of Bill Russell being the most overrated player of all time. Dude is basically Joakim Noah.

On steroids. Which is probably the best player in the league today, and certainly top 3.

[fpliii]

Pretty much..

Kinda sad we dont have these stats recorded. Wilt and especially Russell would be regarded much higher, imo.

We have most (maybe all) of the unofficial block numbers mentioned in newspapers on nbastats.net, but yeah, shame most of them are lost forever.

[TheMan]

They lost a close 7 games series against the Knicks who almost won the championship. Put Kobe on that team, they win the championship.

Kobe is an all time great though...

[TheMan]

I'd agree that he is one of the best in his own era. That's fair. I wouldn't dream of saying he's close to the player Hakeem was for example.

Or any number of all time GOAT bigs...

[jlip]

@TheMan...

How many playoff series did Rodman ever lead his team in points or assists?