Who did MJ actually beat?

[StillKill24]

If Hakeem had the team Jordan had he'd would be gettig called goat.

[dallaslonghorn]

Exactly.

If Mj isn't around Drexler might get one (his legacy jumps up)
Barkley might get one (his legacy jumps up)
Ewing might get 2 (his legacy jumps up)
Malone and Stockton might get 2 (their legacy jump up)

etc.etc.

This same argument can be applied to MVPs as well. The voters have mentioned that it was a given that MJ was the best, so they decided to give it to others (kinda like the Phil Jackson rule for the all star coaching). MJ could've ended with even more MVPs. But to be fair to the other players, they passed them around.

I'm just saying ... maybe they do maybe they don't. How can we know?

So instead of looking at how we would rank their CAREERS, let's look at their actual ABILITIES as players ... where do they rank? I don't think any of these 90's dudes (besides Stockton and maybe Malone) were really top 20 players.

[Dave3]

If Hakeem had the team Jordan had he'd would be gettig called goat.

Didn't he get Pippen and Barkley? It's not about the names of the players on the team. It's how well they go together and the competition you have to beat. Hakeem won without a solid number 2 option, but couldn't win with Pippen....team dynamics are more than just "player+player+player."

[Kellogs4toniee]

I'm just saying ... maybe they do maybe they don't. How can we know?

So instead of looking at how we would rank their CAREERS, let's look at their actual ABILITIES as players ... where do they rank? I don't think any of these 90's dudes (besides Stockton and maybe Malone) were really top 20 players.

[dallaslonghorn]

Like if you look at the history of the NBA ... it's the centers more often than not that determine the titles ... Wilt/Russell --> Kareem --> Shaq/Duncan

And Jordan never played any of them, not in their prime. He never even played Hakeem in the Finals.

[dallaslonghorn]

I usually don't respond to people who I think are idiots

Thanks for the ad hominem attack though, it really does a good job of increasing the discourse on the board

[StillKill24]

Didn't he get Pippen and Barkley? It's not about the names of the players on the team. It's how well they go together and the competition you have to beat. Hakeem won without a solid number 2 option, but couldn't win with Pippen....team dynamics are more than just "player+player+player."

He was way past prime then. Wasn't he?

[DeronMillsap]

I'm just saying ... maybe they do maybe they don't. How can we know?

So instead of looking at how we would rank their CAREERS, let's look at their actual ABILITIES as players ... where do they rank? I don't think any of these 90's dudes (besides Stockton and maybe Malone) were really top 20 players.

Don't forget about Barkley. He is also a Top 20 player, no doubt.

[DeronMillsap]

Like if you look at the history of the NBA ... it's the centers more often than not that determine the titles ... Wilt/Russell --> Kareem --> Shaq/Duncan

And Jordan never played any of them, not in their prime. He never even played Hakeem in the Finals.

OK, now you lost me.

Jordan is a guard.

[andgar923]

I'm just saying ... maybe they do maybe they don't. How can we know?

So instead of looking at how we would rank their CAREERS, let's look at their actual ABILITIES as players ... where do they rank? I don't think any of these 90's dudes (besides Stockton and maybe Malone) were really top 20 players.

Such as?

Are you saying Charles aint?
Ewing?
Drexler?


Who are you referring too?

Shaq?
Magic?
Isiah?


And who are 'your' top 20 players of all time? because Mj didn't go up against many of the players from the 60s, 70s and 80s which make up a bulk of that list.

Fact is, MJ beat the best players of the modern era, in an era with great big men.

[Collie]

He was way past prime then. Wasn't he?

One year removed from a 19-7-6 season where he won a championship. Also Hakeem wasn't as good as MJ, so he would NOT have won as much even with the same supporting cast.

[Micku]

1. Magic- Not really a rivalry, but Magic was many people's GOAT player to the normal peeps.

2. Clyde- They were trying to build up a rivalry between him and MJ, but the Bulls messed that up.

3. Barkley- Would've been cool, and MJ and Barkley had some nice battles too, but the Bulls always won.

4. Payton- One of the GOAT perimeter defender.

5. Stockton/Malone- Probably their best rivalry in the second half of the threepeat.


MJ actually beat a lot of quality teams. The rivalry that you are looking for actually are more team rivalry than individual though. They had good players on the teams, but it is extremely rare to find a rivalry like Bird vs Magic.

Bulls vs Cavs (many times, and close games too)

Bulls vs Pistons (Pistons beat the Bulls up)

Bulls vs Knicks (Epic battles, basically throughout the 90s)

Bulls vs Jazz (one of the memorable series)


If it weren't for the Bulls, there would've be a lot of teams/players that would've looked at much differently.

[Dave3]

He was way past prime then. Wasn't he?

Not "way" past but yeah he was. Point is though, anyone can say "if you put those players together they win" but you can't actually say it with certainty because basketball isn't just adding up players. I mean, Pippen a year removed from a title, Barkley still playing well, and Hakeem still playing well couldn't win a title. Just like prime Shaq and Kobe, with Malone/Payton still playing at a decent level couldn't win a title, losing to a team almost incomparable in talent. It's not simple addition.

[Force]

LOL @ anybody saying that Karl Malone was basically a jump shooter. I saw Karl play from the beginning. Absolute monster who was impossible to guard, he got to the free throw line so easy, very high ball IQ as well. You don't get to the line as often as Malone by shooting jump shots.

[dallaslonghorn]

You really really REALLY sound like you started watching basketball at the earliest in the late 90's. You are so disrespecting Malone right now it's ridiculous.


We already mentioned Barkley, Drexler, Payton, Kemp (All these players were able to get to the Finals before Stockton and Malone to face Jordan).

Barkley, Malone, Stockton, border-line Ewing, border-line Payton, heck Jordan literally spanked the hell out of the Jordan vs. Drexler debate in those finals and Drexler really wasn't the same after that.

Please stop it... your pathetic attempts at trying to downplay Jordan, AND at the same time trying to make it out like your not, is really making you look like a fool to these entire forums.

And to be perfectly honest with you, if some random internet name on a message board thinks I am an "idiot" or a "fool" for an opinion about a game .... well I'm not sure I can emphasize how little I care

I genuinely think this is an interesting convo, I am not trying to troll or anything, but whatever.