Is Shaq dominant as Wilt? A man

[alexandreben]

V.S.

Is Shaq dominant as Wilt? Is Shaq's dominance overrated?

First of all, I love Shaq, am a big fan of Shaq and I still consider he's the most dominate center in the league today even as 37 years old... I started to watched NBA since 80's, Shaq's the most amazing freak athletic center I've ever seen since the 80's, had he controled his weight under 330 lbs and been diligent as Karl Malone, he could've been into the top 3 center of all time(or even top 2).

By watching his games during the Lakers' three-peat period, people automatically kept saying that Shaq's the most dominate player and he would've outplayed or even killed any players like Wilt, Russell, Hakeem, KAJ, etc. especially if the they met during Shaq's three-peat period.

Shaq's dominance could've been overrated, the possible arguments could be these:

1. Rule changes & league's assistance;
The Illegal Defense rule prohibit double-team the non-ball players, the "no-charge" area, etc., with league and referee’s help, all those rules helped Shaq dominate the game.. we all remember in 2001 finals Shaq threw his elbows to Mutombo and got away with it, by the way, Mutombo was two weeks away from his 35 years birthday...

2. Less quantity of matchups with great centers in the 90's;
- In the 90's Shaq battled with HOF/great centers like Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Robert Parish, along with Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo.

- The downside is the quantity of their matchups was sooo limited, e.g. Shaq battled with his toughest opponent Olajuwon only 2 times per season when he was still in Orlando, look at the historical great centers like KAJ, Thurmond, Reed, Chamberlain, Russell, etc., those top HOF centers battled each other 10 times per season.

- In the early 90’s, a 21 years old Shaq dominated weak centers e.g. the 26 years old 7’4” good shooting center Rik Smits:

Player Date GS MP FG-FGA FG% ORB/TRB BLK PTS
Shaq 27/11/1992 W 1gs 30min 7-10 70% 3/11rbs 4blk 21pts
Smits 27/11/1992 L 1gs 16min 4-11 36% 1/2rbs 1blk 10pts

Shaq 09/01/1993 L 1gs 44min 11-20 55% 5/20rbs 8blk 30pts
Smits 09/01/1993 W 1gs 20min 2-6 33% 0/2rbs 2blk 5pts

Shaq 10/03/1993 W 1gs 44mp 8-16 50% 1/11rbs 2blk 26pts
Smits 10/03/1993 L 1gs 36min 8-14 57% 2/7rbs 2blk 16pts

Shaq 02/04/1993 L 1gs 38min 10-17 59% 7/19rbs 1blk 28pts
Smits 02/04/1993 W 1gs 32min 7-17 41% 1/6rbs 0blk 21pts

Shaq 09/11/1993 W 1gs 36min 14-19 74% 4/9rbs 4blk 37pts
Smits 09/11/1993 L 1gs 32min 6-15 40% 1/8rbs 0blk 20pts
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However, the dominance looked less impressive when against a HOF center Robert Parish even he’s 39-40 years old.

Shaquille O'Neal vs. Robert Parish
Despite being dunked in face, a 40 years old Robert Parish battled almost even with a 21 years old young and strong Shaq, check out their first 5 matchups:

Player Date GS MP FG-FGA FG% ORB/TRB BLK PTS
Shaquille O'Neal 08/12/1992 L 1gs 44min 10-19 53% 4/15rbs 4blk 26pts
Robert Parish 08/12/1992 W 1gs 27min 7-11 64% 4/10rbs 3blk 17pts

Shaquille O'Neal 15/01/1993 W 1gs 40min 7-15 47% 1/12rbs 4blk 22pts
Robert Parish 15/01/1993 L 1gs 29min 8-15 53% 3/11rbs 2blk 19pts

Shaquille O'Neal 29/01/1993 L 1gs 40min 10-13 77% 3/13rbs 2blk 26pts
Robert Parish 29/01/1993 W 1gs 27min 9-16 56% 6/10rbs 1blk 18pts

Shaquille O'Neal 18/04/1993 W 1gs 42min 8-20 40% 5/21rbs 1blk 20pts
Robert Parish 18/04/1993 L 1gs 29min 6-12 50% 0/2rbs 0blk 14pts

Shaquille O'Neal 21/04/1993 L 1gs 34min 7-14 50% 1/10rbs 2blk 20pts
Robert Parish 21/04/1993 W 1gs 19min 6-10 60% 2/12rbs 1blk 15pts
----------------------------------------


Here's their total 26 times matchups stats(did I mention Wilt battled with Russell 142 times? ):
Shaq: 28.7pts / 12.0rbs / 3.1blk
Ewing:21.4pts / 10.8rbs / 2.0blk

Shaq(21 yrs old) v.s. Ewing(31 yrs old) first five matchups:
Player Date MP FG FGA FG% ORB/TRB BLK PTS
Ewing 21/11/1992 W 35min 7-16 44% 0/9rbs 3blk 15pts
Shaq 21/11/1992 L 44min 7-18 39% 3/17rbs 3blk 18pts

Ewing 08/01/1993 L 39min 9-27 33% 1/12rbs 1blk 21pts
Shaq 08/01/1993 W 34min 10-17 59% 1/13rbs 5blk 22pts

Ewing 14/02/1993 L 43min 14-29 48% 2/14rbs 4blk 34pts
Shaq 14/02/1993 W 47min 8-25 32% 9/19rbs 9blk 21pts

Ewing 08/03/1993 W 45min 17-35 49% 4/17rbs 1blk 37pts
Shaq 08/03/1993 L 35min 8-23 35% 3/9rbs 2blk 23pts

Ewing 04/01/1994 W 41min 9-18 50% 5/19rbs 3blk 26pts
Shaq 04/01/1994 L 36min 11-16 69% 2/5rbs 1blk 26pts

We can see that before Ewing got severely old(with injury knees btw), they battled equal reguarding to their pts and rebounds, Shaq is much more dominant in the paint while Ewing is a much better shooter and defender, Shaq was a terrible 40% field gold on the line by the way... we never had the opportunity to see a 27 years old peak Ewing battled with Shaq.

---------------------------------------------------------

How about Hakeem, the best center in the 90's, I watched most of their matchups including regular seasons(there're not many matchups anyway), and including their matchups Shaq's early years in Lakers, I must say Hakeem is better than Shaq.

In the mid-90’s, Shaq killed a over-hill Ewing, but the 33-34 years old over-hill Hakeem played equal with Shaq and outplayed him in the Finals, even Shaq admitted, although Shaq’s stats look better but Hakeem had better defense and some clutch performances than Shaq, I’d called they played equal, Hakeem slightly better. Everyone talks about Anderson missed four free-throws in game 1, but Shaq made a crucial mistake passing at the very last minute just like Bill Russell did, but no one bailed him out like Rondo and Jones bailed out Russell.

There's still a lot of resources including full footage of all games and here's some highlights of game 1:
1st Half: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hRoMOAirnU
2nd Half: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hd1D-u8oAfo

[alexandreben]

continue...

3. Weak opponents in 00's;
Shaq was absolutely un-stoppable in the 00's, but the ugly truth is those HOF centers in the 90's got severely older, the number of other quality centers was quite limited...

Hakeem was 37-39 years old during the so called Lakers “Three-Peat” p

[hateraid]

Shaq dominated those hall of fame centers in his first three years in the league while they were in their prime. The Magic didn't. Shaq was the most physically imposing center at that time period.

[Calabis]

Bill Russell 6'9
Nate Thurmond 6'11
Willis Reed 6'9
Wes Unseld 6'7
Red Kerr 6'9
Zelmo Beaty 6'9
Walt Bellamy 6'11

Yeah nice list Wilt dominated a small forward, 4 power forwards......wow....please quit trying to build up this 60's era, acting like stars of the 80's-2000's can't touch these guys. Put Shaq back in that era and he puts up Wilt numbers period. Now please stop with this foolishness.

[alexandreben]

Bill Russell 6'9
Nate Thurmond 6'11
Willis Reed 6'9
Wes Unseld 6'7
Red Kerr 6'9
Zelmo Beaty 6'9
Walt Bellamy 6'11

Yeah nice list Wilt dominated a small forward, 4 power forwards......wow....please quit trying to build up this 60's era, acting like stars of the 80's-2000's can't touch these guys. Put Shaq back in that era and he puts up Wilt numbers period. Now please stop with this foolishness.

you call Unseld a small forward?!

[alexandreben]

Shaq dominated those hall of fame centers in his first three years in the league while they were in their prime. The Magic didn't. Shaq was the most physically imposing center at that time period.

I wouldn't use the word "dominate" regarding to those HOF centers, you can put that on some centers like Rik Smiths in my thread.

Hakeem definitely was the best center in 90's, not Shaq.

[Calabis]

you call Unseld a small forward?!

His height man!!!!...dude is 6'7 trying to guard a 7'1 Wilt...now please be quiet

[alexandreben]

His height man!!!!...dude is 6'7 trying to guard a 7'1 Wilt...now please be quiet

You konw..the 6'6" Ben Wallace got more rebound than 7'1" Shaq...

Unseld got more rebound when matchup with 7'2" KAJ...

I'd put money on it you know nothing about Unseld since you called him a small forward...

[ShaqAttack3234]

what is with this competition crap again?

Shaq vs Alonzo Mourning

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=mournal01

And why include only 2 seasons in the Shaq vs Ewing comparison? You include Shaq's rookie year which is far away from his typical offensive seasons, yet don't include Ewing's '95 season which was virtually the same as the previous 2? And even the following 2 seasons, Ewing's production didn't drop much at all.

And IMO, Shaq was more dominant than Wilt. Look at his 2000 and 2001 playoff runs. 30+ ppg, 15+ rpg, high shooting percentage and back to back championships.

And why bring up that Mutombo was 35 in the 2001 finals? He was still the defensive player of the year for the 4th time, an all-star for the 7th time(he'd make his 8th all-star team the following season) and the league-leading rebounder for the 2nd straight season. All Shaq did was average 33/16/5/3 on 57% shooting.

Look at how much Shaq was doubled and tripled in the 2000 finals thanks to being on a 2-star team with not many scoring threats and one of the stars(Kobe) basically missing 2 games and only having 1 good game. Who cares who was technically the opposing center? It's not like he was played 1 on 1, or even close. Constant double/triple teams. He averaged an astounding 38/17/3 on 61% shooting. And no, these aren't the inflated stats of Wilt's era with a million rebounds available, nor did he have the luxuary of being able to take 40 shots per game.

Shaq also wasn't playing 48 mpg and getting plenty of opportunities to pad his stats with the game already decided.

Look at the footage of their offensive games. Shaq had superior footwork, better moves, IMO, he was probably stronger and at the veyr least, used his strength more, same with his explosive athleticism. Shaq was definitely more dominant offensively, IMO. Later in his career, I'd give Wilt the nod defensively, but Shaq's playoff dominance sets him apart.

[alexandreben]

what is with this competition crap again?

Shaq vs Alonzo Mourning

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=mournal01

And why include only 2 seasons in the Shaq vs Ewing comparison? You include Shaq's rookie year which is far away from his typical offensive seasons, yet don't include Ewing's '95 season which was virtually the same as the previous 2? And even the following 2 seasons, Ewing's production didn't drop much at all.

I've put all their matchups in my original thread including their first 5 matchups:
Here's their total 26 times matchups stats(did I mention Wilt battled with Russell 142 times? )
Shaq: 28.7pts / 12.0rbs / 3.1blk
Ewing:21.4pts / 10.8rbs / 2.0blk

And IMO, Shaq was more dominant than Wilt. Look at his 2000 and 2001 playoff runs. 30+ ppg, 15+ rpg, high shooting percentage and back to back championships.

Your arguments are just because his performance in the 00' and 01' (Rik Smiths & a 35 years old Mutombo)? Look at his opponents... the main idea of this thread is "a player's greatness is measured by his opponents"

And why bring up that Mutombo was 35 in the 2001 finals? He was still the defensive player of the year for the 4th time, an all-star for the 7th time(he'd make his 8th all-star team the following season) and the league-leading rebounder for the 2nd straight season. All Shaq did was average 33/16/5/3 on 57% shooting.

Indeed the 35 years old Mutombo was the DPOY, indeed Dwight Howard is the DPOY too, indeed Dennis Rodman got a tons of rebounds, etc.. the main idea is "in what competition that they won those accolades", especially the DPOY that Howard get...

Look at how much Shaq was doubled and tripled in the 2000 finals thanks to being on a 2-star team with not many scoring threats and one of the stars(Kobe) basically missing 2 games and only having 1 good game. Who cares who was technically the opposing center? It's not like he was played 1 on 1, or even close. Constant double/triple teams. He averaged an astounding 38/17/3 on 61% shooting. And no, these aren't the inflated stats of Wilt's era with a million rebounds available, nor did he have the luxuary of being able to take 40 shots per game.

It's very important that who the opposing center, just look at Dwight Howard, in what kind of competition he played in 00's... what if he played in 80's or 90's?...we all know the answer, hence, the quality of the opposing centers are quite important...

Again, pace issue is for guards who made fast breaks, you can say the old school guards' stats are inflated, but not centers.

Shaq also wasn't playing 48 mpg and getting plenty of opportunities to pad his stats with the game already decided.

I doubt he could play 48 min... due to his 380 lbs weight, he only played averaged 70 games, in his domination saison, he only played 67 games for three years in a row, consistantly injuries won't allow him to play 48 min.

Look at the footage of their offensive games. Shaq had superior footwork, better moves, IMO, he was probably stronger and at the veyr least, used his strength more, same with his explosive athleticism. Shaq was definitely more dominant offensively, IMO. Later in his career, I'd give Wilt the nod defensively, but Shaq's playoff dominance sets him apart.

Talking about athleticism and strength, Wilt Chamberlain is second to no one...

[GOBB]

Dale Davis was that dude. How can a team not want Dale Davis?

Anyway did Wilt use his elbows to clear opponents out (without knocking out thier teeth I might add)?

[ShaqAttack3234]

Your arguments are just because his performance in the 00' and 01' (Rik Smiths & a 35 years old Mutombo)? Look at his opponents... the main idea of this thread is "a player's greatness is measured by his opponents"

Game 1 of the 2000 finals

Check out the post position Shaq gets on Dale Davis and how helpless the 6'10", 260 pound Davis looks, Shaq dunks on Smits and Davis with ease despite getting fouled. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjETgzSbg9k#t=0m18s

Great move and Shaq finishes vs the triple team. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjETgzSbg9k#t=0m44s

Once again, they try to triple team him, but it doesn't work. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjETgzSbg9k#t=1m00s

Another triple team in the paint, but a great ball fake and fadeaway to beat the triple team. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjETgzSbg9k#t=1m06s

Another double team attempt, but Indiana is helpless. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjETgzSbg9k#t=1m31s

Again, Shaq vs 3 defenders in the paint. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjETgzSbg9k#t=1m53s

All 5 defenders are in the lane, but a great move by Shaq and a strong finish. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjETgzSbg9k#t=2m12s

Not to mention that Shaq played in the slowest pace era with arguably the toughest defenses. And you can see that prime Shaq was arguably double teamed more than any other player.

And throughout that series, Smits guarded Shaq the least out of the 3 big men they put on him. Shaq toyed with Dale Davis who was an all-star that season.

Indeed the 35 years old Mutombo was the DPOY, indeed Dwight Howard is the DPOY too, indeed Dennis Rodman got a tons of rebounds, etc.. the main idea is "in what competition that they won those accolades", especially the DPOY that Howard get...

Mutombo had won his 4th DPOY, he won 3 of those in the 90's and made most of his 8 all-star teams in the 90's, he was not a product of a weak era, he was one of the greatest defensive players of all time.

It's very important that who the opposing center, just look at Dwight Howard, in what kind of competition he played in 00's... what if he played in 80's or 90's?...we all know the answer, hence, the quality of the opposing centers are quite important...

As a 20 year old rookie, Shaq averaged 23/14 with 3.5 bpg in the era of Olajuwon, Robinson, Mourning and Mutombo. The following year, 29/13/3 on 60% shooting and the next year? 29/11/3 on 58% shooting and a finals appearance and he played Olajuwon much better than a prime David Robinson had or Ewing had the previous year in the finals. Shaq was dominating in his early years in Orlando and he wasn't even as complete of a player as he'd become. When Phil Jackson took over as coach, Shaq started playing better defense, became a better rebounder, a better passer and smarter.

And in Shaq's best season(2000). Centers were not nearly as weak as later in the decade. Mourning and Mutombo were still in their prime. You had the twin towers of Duncan and Robinson and for those that say Robinson was washed up, remember that he was the Spurs leading scorer in the second half of the season and in 8 games without Duncan, the Spurs were 5-3 and Robinson averaged 21/9, plus he was still an excellent defensive player. Most teams atleast had a solid 7 footer with good size and either a skilled post game or shot blocking/rebounding skills. The centers 10 years ago were far better on average than today.

And the competition argument is more relevant with Howard because we've seen him struggle more vs legit centers, while we saw Shaq from 1992-2000 dominating.

Again, pace issue is for guards who made fast breaks, you can say the old school guards' stats are inflated, but not centers.

Not true, far more rebounds available and shot attempts. Picture a center getting 40 shot attempts in todays game, hell any player, even 30 shots per game.

I doubt he could play 48 min... due to his 380 lbs weight, he only played averaged 70 games, in his domination saison, he only played 67 games for three years in a row, consistantly injuries won't allow him to play 48 min.

Shaq averaged 45.5 mpg in the 2000 finals, 43.5 mpg in the playoffs that year and 40 mpg in the 2000 season. No big man averaged more than 40 mpg that season, the only other big man to match the 40 mpg in the regular season was Kevin Garnett. The following season, he averaged 39.5 mpg in the regular season, 42.3 mpg in the playoffs and 45 mpg in the finals.

Maybe not 48 mpg, but based on trends in Wilt's era, Shaq would be playing a lot more minutes than he did in his era if he played in the 60's.

Talking about athleticism and strength, Wilt Chamberlain is second to no one...

Based on legends and stories, yes. But based on the footage I've seen, Shaq had the best combination of the two. And as far as strength, if Wilt was really as strong, it's irrelevant because by his own admission he didn't use his strength to consistently overpower opponents.

I can't judge until seeing more footage, but I will admit that 1967 Wilt was arguably the greatest single season player, but you could make that same argument for 2000 Shaq, and Shaq came closer to matching his best season the following year. And Shaq had more truly dominant playoff runs. Wilt was generally considered a disappointment in the playoffs and from the newspaper articles and stats I've collected, I can see why.

[Soundwave]

Shaq is the greatest power player in NBA history.

And yes, even above Wilt.

Wilt said on watching Shaq that he'd never seen anyone that ruthless around the rim, trying to dunk on everyone, ripping the rim off, etc.

Said that even he was more of a finesse player compared to Shaq.

No one in NBA history has dominated from such a pure physical/"power game" POV ever.

[alexandreben]

Game 1 of the 2000 finals

Check out the post position Shaq gets on Dale Davis and how helpless the 6'10", 260 pound Davis looks, Shaq dunks on Smits and Davis with ease despite getting fouled. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjETgzSbg9k#t=0m18s

Great move and Shaq finishes vs the triple team. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjETgzSbg9k#t=0m44s

Once again, they try to triple team him, but it doesn't work. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjETgzSbg9k#t=1m00s

Another triple team in the paint, but a great ball fake and fadeaway to beat the triple team. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjETgzSbg9k#t=1m06s

Another double team attempt, but Indiana is helpless. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjETgzSbg9k#t=1m31s

Again, Shaq vs 3 defenders in the paint. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjETgzSbg9k#t=1m53s

All 5 defenders are in the lane, but a great move by Shaq and a strong finish. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjETgzSbg9k#t=2m12s

Not to mention that Shaq played in the slowest pace era with arguably the toughest defenses. And you can see that prime Shaq was arguably double teamed more than any other player.

And throughout that series, Smits guarded Shaq the least out of the 3 big men they put on him. Shaq toyed with Dale Davis who was an all-star that season.



Mutombo had won his 4th DPOY, he won 3 of those in the 90's and made most of his 8 all-star teams in the 90's, he was not a product of a weak era, he was one of the greatest defensive players of all time.



As a 20 year old rookie, Shaq averaged 23/14 with 3.5 bpg in the era of Olajuwon, Robinson, Mourning and Mutombo. The following year, 29/13/3 on 60% shooting and the next year? 29/11/3 on 58% shooting and a finals appearance and he played Olajuwon much better than a prime David Robinson had or Ewing had the previous year in the finals. Shaq was dominating in his early years in Orlando and he wasn't even as complete of a player as he'd become. When Phil Jackson took over as coach, Shaq started playing better defense, became a better rebounder, a better passer and smarter.

And in Shaq's best season(2000). Centers were not nearly as weak as later in the decade. Mourning and Mutombo were still in their prime. You had the twin towers of Duncan and Robinson and for those that say Robinson was washed up, remember that he was the Spurs leading scorer in the second half of the season and in 8 games without Duncan, the Spurs were 5-3 and Robinson averaged 21/9, plus he was still an excellent defensive player. Most teams atleast had a solid 7 footer with good size and either a skilled post game or shot blocking/rebounding skills. The centers 10 years ago were far better on average than today.

And the competition argument is more relevant with Howard because we've seen him struggle more vs legit centers, while we saw Shaq from 1992-2000 dominating.



Not true, far more rebounds available and shot attempts. Picture a center getting 40 shot attempts in todays game, hell any player, even 30 shots per game.



Shaq averaged 45.5 mpg in the 2000 finals, 43.5 mpg in the playoffs that year and 40 mpg in the 2000 season. No big man averaged more than 40 mpg that season, the only other big man to match the 40 mpg in the regular season was Kevin Garnett. The following season, he averaged 39.5 mpg in the regular season, 42.3 mpg in the playoffs and 45 mpg in the finals.

Maybe not 48 mpg, but based on trends in Wilt's era, Shaq would be playing a lot more minutes than he did in his era if he played in the 60's.



Based on legends and stories, yes. But based on the footage I've seen, Shaq had the best combination of the two. And as far as strength, if Wilt was really as strong, it's irrelevant because by his own admission he didn't use his strength to consistently overpower opponents.

I can't judge until seeing more footage, but I will admit that 1967 Wilt was arguably the greatest single season player, but you could make that same argument for 2000 Shaq, and Shaq came closer to matching his best season the following year. And Shaq had more truly dominant playoff runs. Wilt was generally considered a disappointment in the playoffs and from the newspaper articles and stats I've collected, I can see why.

Playing 45 min a few times in the finals is one thing(Shaq), playing 45 min in the entire career is a whole lot of different thing(Wilt);

If Shaq was not that lazy, he could've control his weight and played better...

Shaq had the pleasure to play against HOF centers Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing and he put up good performance even their peak p

[ShaqAttack3234]

[QUOTE=alexandreben]Playing 45 min a few times in the finals is one thing(Shaq), playing 45 min in the entire career is a whole lot of different thing(Wilt);

If Shaq was not that lazy, he could've control his weight and played better...

Shaq had the pleasure to play against HOF centers Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing and he put up good performance even their peak p