If MJ had retired in 1989 instead of 1994

[3ball]

1993 - Championship

MJ leaves

1994- ECSF

True, but it wasn't just 1 championship though - it was a dynasty 3-peat championship... only 3 teams have ever done that, ever.. A three-peat is a big difference from a 1-off championship.

The Bulls went from 3-peat dynasty... to 2nd round playoff exit... back to 3-peat dynasty - it's literally the biggest drop-off and recovery in NBA history.

That's what happens when you add MJ's goat stats to a team without reducing what was already there - Pippen and Kukoc's stats barely changed alongside MJ.

MJ's off-ball style allowed him to add his goat stats RIGHT ON TOP of what was already there without diminishing anything.. This maximized the team's production capability, thus eliminating the possibility of underachieving.

[Hey Yo]

You made my point in bold..

Just think, 1.5 years off playing baseball, and WOW, the Bulls had lost a little chemistry???... Seems impossible that they would lose chemistry... Who would've ever thought...

13-4 with MJ to finish the season. Quit making excuses

[Hey Yo]

No need for excuses - if MJ had retired in 1989, the Bulls wouldn't have been in ECF veterans and 1 year away from winning it all going into 1990 season.

They would've been a lottery team instead, which means they would never have been defending 3-peat champions by 1994 (they would've been in the lottery the entire time).

You mean like Cleveland was the year before they drafted LeBron and 4yrs straight after he left? The worst combined 4yr record in the league?

You bring up chemistry but how was the chemistry for the Cavs once the playoffs started this year? How was it in the Finals losing 2 starters (against the no.1 offense and defense in the league) yet still found a way to win 2 games?

[Hey Yo]

ahhhhh..... I see you deleted your post after seeing how dumb it was.

Not the first time and def. not the last.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Didn't read any of this but OP is a fa[COLOR="Black"]g[/COLOR]got. Will neg.

[Asukal]

3ball stop with the hypotheticals and ifs and buts. You sound like loseruss.

I swear you must be his alt, you're trying way too hard to make people hate MJ.

[3ball]

Why not take every top 10 guy off their team at a random, arbitrary moment and see what they accomplish. I'm sure it would all be similar, gag on my friend.

What star leaves a team after they just won 66 games without having gotten over the hump and won anything?

Not a top 15 all-time player.. I guarantee that.

Otoh, MJ didn't leave while his team was in the middle of a cutting-teeth process against the Bad Boys.. He stuck it out until they got over the hump.. After they got over the hump, the team was no longer a virgin - they were a completely different team from that point forward, thanks to MJ.

Honestly, Lebron's dumb.. There's no reason to believe that his 2010 wasn't like MJ's 1990, where MJ lost in heart-breaking fashion for the 3rd year in a row, for the FINAL TIME.. How does Lebron know his Cleveland team wouldn't have broken through in 2011 like MJ did in 1991?.. Lebron didn't have the balls to take that gamble.. But it would've worked out because by breaking through organically with a core group, that results in the same sustainable core and superior teamwork that all long-reigning champions have historically had.

Regarding MJ's impact - if he wasn't on the 47-win Bulls in 1989, they're a lottery team that year and miss the playoffs - this is all but fact.. It's not disputable just like OJ's murder isn't disputable (even though similarly, you can't prove it to me this very instant).. MJ's impact in 1989 was the difference between being a lottery team going into the 1990 season, or a tested ECF team that was 1 season away from the start of their first 3-peat - that's an utterly massive gap.
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[warriorfan]

Didn't read any of this but OP is a fa[COLOR="Black"]g[/COLOR]got. Will neg.

Jelly cause OP has forgotten more about bball than you will ever know

#DealWithIt

[SouBeachTalents]

What star leaves a team after they just won 66 games without having gotten over the hump and won anything?

Not a top 15 all-time player.. I guarantee that.

Otoh, MJ didn't leave while his team was in the middle of a cutting-teeth process against the Bad Boys.. He stuck it out until they got over the hump.. After they got over the hump, the team was no longer a virgin - they were a completely different team from that point forward, thanks to MJ.

Honestly, Lebron's dumb.. There's no reason to believe that his 2010 wasn't like MJ's 1990, where MJ lost in heart-breaking fashion for the 3rd year in a row, for the FINAL TIME.. How does Lebron know his Cleveland team wouldn't have broken through in 2011 like MJ did in 1991?.. Lebron didn't have the balls to take that gamble.. But it would've worked out because by breaking through organically with a core group, that results in the same sustainable core and superior teamwork that all long-reigning champions have historically had.

Regarding MJ's impact - if he wasn't on the 47-win Bulls in 1989, they're a lottery team that year and miss the playoffs - this is all but fact.. It's not disputable just like OJ's murder isn't disputable (even though similarly, you can't prove it to me this very instant).. MJ's impact in 1989 was the difference between being a lottery team going into the 1990 season, or a tested ECF team that was 1 season away from the start of their first 3-peat - that's an utterly massive gap.
.

I think it's possible if LeBron had a great second option like a Pippen as well as a coach like Phil he stays in Cleveland. And say what you want, but if Jordan had LeBron's roster you don't know 100% if he stays or not

[3ball]

I think it's possible if LeBron had a great second option like a Pippen as well as a coach like Phil he stays in Cleveland.

And say what you want, but if Jordan had LeBron's roster you don't know 100% if he stays or not

You're forgetting the time period you're talking about - in 1989 and 1990, EVERY SINGLE PLAYER, COACH AND BASKETBALL PERSON viewed the Bulls as the most 1-man team in the entire league.

This is not hyperbole or exaggeration.. There's a reason he faced the "Jordan Rules" and he had nicknames of "1-man show" while his supporting cast was called the "Jordanaires".. There's a reason MJ had to lead the league in scoring every year.

In 1989, MJ's 2nd option was Pippen's 14.4/6.1/3.5.. But Pippen was a 2nd year player, and his stats cratered to 9/5/3 in the first round against Cleveland, when MJ hit "the shot".

Otoh, Lebron had experienced veterans as his 2nd and 3rd options in Mo Williams (16/5) and Antawn Jamison (16/8), both superior to Pippen's 14/6.. Furthermore, Williams and Jamison were vets, so their stats didn't crater in the playoffs like 2nd year Pippen's.. Cavs also had Shaq, Delonte West, Anderson Varejao, JJ Hickson, Zydrunas Illgauskas, and Anthony Parker.. That's a vastly superior cast of veterans compared to the baby "Jordanaires".

So don't use the argument that MJ had a better roster - he didn't - he had a FAR WORSE roster, and they were all babies, not vets like Lebron's crew.. But while Lebron abandoned a 66-win team, MJ stuck with his team.

He also employed a more optimal, off-ball style that allowed him to achieve GOAT stats without diminishing the stats of teammates.. Imagine if Bosh's stats REMAINED at 20/10 alongside Lebron.. That's what happened for Pippen and Kukoc alongside MJ, while Kerr/Paxson/BJ never sucked like Chalmers/Cole/Battier.. Teammates didn't have to abandon their comfort zones alongside MJ and could maintain their normal statistical production, which maximized the team's production and prevented underachievement.. In hindsight, 6/6 is no surprise.
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[24-Inch_Chrome]

Jelly cause OP has forgotten more about bball than you will ever know

#DealWithIt

I'm sorry, I don't speak f[COLOR="Black"]a[/COLOR]ggot.

[dunksby]

Jordan quit, he literally quit, get over it.

[Hey Yo]

What star leaves a team after they just won 66 games without having gotten over the hump and won anything?

Not a top 15 all-time player.. I guarantee that.

Otoh, MJ didn't leave while his team was in the middle of a cutting-teeth process against the Bad Boys.. He stuck it out until they got over the hump.. After they got over the hump, the team was no longer a virgin - they were a completely different team from that point forward, thanks to MJ.

Honestly, Lebron's dumb.. There's no reason to believe that his 2010 wasn't like MJ's 1990, where MJ lost in heart-breaking fashion for the 3rd year in a row, for the FINAL TIME.. How does Lebron know his Cleveland team wouldn't have broken through in 2011 like MJ did in 1991?.. Lebron didn't have the balls to take that gamble..But it would've worked out because by breaking through organically with a core group, that results in the same sustainable core and superior teamwork that all long-reigning champions have historically had.

Jordan's first playoff series against those Pistons was in 1988. He signed an 8yr deal later that summer.

For the second time in this thread MJ couldn't have left because he was under contract

Quit duckin' my posts.

[Iceman#44]

Those Bulls teams won the same amount of games with or without MJ

1993- 57 wins

MJ leaves

1994- 55 wins




Jordan was a good piece for the Bulls to have, but ultimately insignificant

2/6 doe

[diamenz]

Jordan's first playoff series against those Pistons was in 1988. He signed an 8yr deal later that summer.

For the second time in this thread MJ couldn't have left because he was under contract

Quit duckin' my posts.

people didn't 'leave' in the 80's and nineties to join their rivals. it was a man's league back then.