If Bird's career corresponded with Lebron's

[Marchesk]

Say Bird comes into the league the same 21 year old Lebron's rookie season. How would he rank in today's game? Assume same length of career with eventual back issues, although better medicine might mitigate that somewhat.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I wonder how Bird would look growing up in a basketball enviornment of the Point Forward ... which didn't really exist when he was learning the game. Magic was kind of the prototype. Then Pippen, and Grant Hill modernized it.

[Kvnzhangyay]

I wonder how Bird would look growing up in a basketball enviornment of the Point Forward ... which didn't really exist when he was learning the game. Magic was kind of the prototype. Then Pippen, and Grant Hill modernized it.

This lol. Bird would be playing a totally different game. For better or worse, thats up to speculation

[3ball]

Bird would be playing a totally different game. For better or worse, thats up to speculation

If he grew up in today's game, his handle would be even better, although he'd be a worse playmaker and basketball player because he wouldn't need the skill it took to play with no spacing, since today's game HAS spacing.

The whole game would be slowed down for him with all this extra space - he'd see 5 plays ahead instead of just 2 or 3.

Bird had a guard handle and was a point-forward BACK THEN - this was just on his own - he didn't have a pippen or grant hill as an example of who to play like.
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[RoundMoundOfReb]

I think he'd play mostly PF in today's game. Like a smaller more skilled Dirk.

[Micku]

Bird had a guard handle and was a point-forward BACK THEN - this was just on his own - he didn't have a pippen or grant hill as an example of who to play like.

If he grew up in today's game, his handle would be even better, although his play-making would be worse because he wouldn't the skill that it took to play with no spacing, because today's game HAS spacing.

I don't remember him having guard handles from the vids that I watched. He wasn't Magic, DJ, Ainge, or Isiah Thomas or anything like that. I don't think he had better handles or equal than Worthy or Dr. J either.

It was like you wouldn't feel comfortable to have Bird to dribble up the court like Pippen or Grant Hill, but you don't mind him dribbling in a half court set. He coould do it, cuz I seen some videos where the ball was pressured and Bird had to dribble the ball. Even the commentators were like "Oooh. The Celts would prefer not to have Bird dribble up the floor," but that was in the 86. I need to check out more of his moves back in the early 80s. Anyway, I think he was considered a point forward BACK THEN as you said.

[3ball]

Like a smaller more skilled Dirk.

He'd score in more ways... and of course, average 3 times as many assists as Dirk.

Bird would play SF though, and some PF too, just like he did in the 80's... People don't realize how good his handle was - he had a GUARD handle - go look at the tape.

Also, in today's game, Bird would get more than his 6.5 career assist average, because passing is easier WITH spacing than without... infact, ALL things on the offensive end are easier with spacing, so his entire offensive game would be enhanced.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I think he'd play mostly PF in today's game. Like a smaller more skilled Dirk.

Better defender, and rebounder too.

[Micku]

I think he'd play mostly PF in today's game. Like a smaller more skilled Dirk.

Yeah, he'll play more PF I think. A smaller, but more skilled version of Dirk as you said. He might be the ultimate stretch 4, but is very good at posting up. He said he think he'll play the 4 himself in one of his interviews. I think with Bill Simmons? Bird played the 4 a lot anyway back in the early 80s.

Anyway, he'll be top 2 or top 3 depending on the years. A 21 year old Bird would be interesting tho. He wouldn't have his broken finger, right?

Anyway, assuming if he would have the same stats (ignoring college), I think Bird wouldn't be considered on LBJ level until he was about 27. That's when Bird entered his prime. Then when he was 28-30 flip a coin I suppose. If we don't use the same stats, then it's anybody guess. Play 2k, lol.

But it also depends on how well their team is doing.

Regardless, Bird probably would've the best PF in the game for a while if he played it instead of SF.

[Prometheus]

Also, in today's game, Bird would get more than his 6.5 career assist average, because passing is easier WITH spacing than without... infact, ALL things on the offensive end are easier with spacing, so his entire offensive game would be enhanced.

... but you've said many times that it's a zero sum game. So which is it, really? If necessary, go ahead and pick whichever side fits your "80s/90s > ... " narrative at the moment. I won't mind.

[Prometheus]

Say Bird comes into the league the same 21 year old Lebron's rookie season. How would he rank in today's game? Assume same length of career with eventual back issues, although better medicine might mitigate that somewhat.

I'd like this hypothetical better if they were the same age. Either way, Bird would likely score more points in today's game because of a greater emphasis on spacing. He is, after all, one of the greatest outside shooters ever. I'd say he puts up the same numbers he did, plus an additional 2-3 points each year. It never would have been "LeBron's league", but it wouldn't have been Bird's either... they would probably be portrayed as rivals, and my gut tells me that Bird would generally get the better of the matchup and be regarded as the best player.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I wonder how Bird would look growing up in a basketball enviornment of the Point Forward ... which didn't really exist when he was learning the game. Magic was kind of the prototype. Then Pippen, and Grant Hill modernized it.

Yes, it definitely did exist...

-Paul Pressey was playing point-forward in the mid-to-late 80's, while being very good at it.

-Marques Johnson was playing point-forward in the early 80's.

-John Johnson was many times utilized as a point-forward and he started his career in the early 70's.

-Rick Barry at some point was doing plenty of playmaking from the perimeter.

-Hondo was also playing something like a point-forward, sometimes.

...

I remember Bird saying he didn't really "like" to play point-forward though, bringing the ball up and whatnot, playng more from the perimeter... He did it plenty (and the most in his career) in the early 90's though, when he was basically a complete shell also.

Pippen and Grant didn't modernize it, or anything you wanna call it like that...

This lol. Bird would be playing a totally different game. For better or worse, thats up to speculation

Don't believe he would. If he did, certainly wouldn't be because of the point-forward aspect and whatnot. Bird did plenty of playmaking and so on, plenty of great passes, without being a point-forward, without being the main ball-handler, without bringing the ball up-court...

You were agreeing with something basically wrong there, though.

[3ball]

... but you've said many times that it's a zero sum game. So which is it, really? If necessary, go ahead and pick whichever side fits your "80s/90s > ... " narrative at the moment. I won't mind.

With the spacing of today's game, the defenders shown above wouldn't be in such close proximity, so Bird wouldn't need to thread the needle and make AS great a play..

Instead, Bird could take his time and make a more predictable, less impressive pass... Faster pace & no spacing = quicker decisions & tougher passes.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Bird and MJ are mentally the toughest, most bad ass dudes to grace the sport.

[Prometheus]

With the spacing of today's game, the defenders shown above wouldn't be in such close proximity, so Bird wouldn't need to thread the needle and make AS great a play..

Instead, Bird could take his time and make a more predictable, less impressive pass... Faster pace & no spacing = quicker decisions & tougher passes.

Zero sum game. More spacing = wider range of options = more demanding on one's peripheral vision and awareness. More spacing = more cross-court passes and greater distance on drive-and-dish (think of Paxson's long twos in 1991... those would be threes today). Zero sum game.