Kevin Love vs Blake Griffin, who's better?

[blacknapalm]

love.

leads all PF's in apg. best outlet passer PF in the game.

despite the ability to hit 3's at a good clip, he also draws more fouls than blake...and hits them at a much higher rate, thus getting the opposing teams into foul trouble and not being a liability late.

when on the court, love was a part of four of the top five of minny's defensive units. his post defense is actually decent as he uses angles and leverage. he's not good at closing out. neither of these guys are really good defensively, so what's the point in murking love?

love led the league in double-doubles and had three triple doubles.

love has recorded nine 30/15 point games and 22 25/15 point games. he and dwight are the only two players to do this since 2001.

amongst davis, aldridge, love and blake, blake gives up the highest PER against opposing PF's. love gives up the least. love finished with a PER of #4 in the league while any other PF didn't even finish in the top 20.

love's win share is higher than blake's by a wide margin despite clippers winning 17 more games.

against blake, love posted 45/19/6 and 23/19/7 and against aldridge, love posted 29/15/9.

love's on/off court rating is 27.1. griffin is 20.4.

so love is top 1-5 in ppg, rpg, apg, 3's and FTA at his position...basically every statistical cat and he crushes in a couple areas. the only other PF that arguably has his offensive impact is dirk. the gap between blake and love defensively cannot make up for the gap on offense. oh and when love sits on the bench, his team struggles mightily as his +/- suggests.

griffin is right there w/ his improved post game and defense. i think cp3 going down for a bit and his playoff emergence really helped him grow and he's still only 24.

you'll see though...minny will be a bottom 5-10 team next season while cavs go on to win 65 games. lebron will get due credit and love will probably be overlooked.

[Sarcastic]

Somebody pull up Kevin Love's playoff averages please.

Anyone?

You gonna pull up playoffs for Griffin? He got benched by his own coach for old past prime Kenyon Martin because Z-Bo completely was owning his ass. The only respectable playoff performance Blake has had was vs GS and David Lee.

[Cocaine80s]

love.

leads all PF's in apg. best outlet passer PF in the game.

despite the ability to hit 3's at a good clip, he also draws more fouls than blake...and hits them at a much higher rate, thus getting the opposing teams into foul trouble and not being a liability late.

when on the court, love was a part of four of the top five of minny's defensive units. his post defense is actually decent as he uses angles and leverage. he's not good at closing out. neither of these guys are really good defensively, so what's the point in murking love?

love led the league in double-doubles and had three triple doubles.

love has recorded nine 30/15 point games and 22 25/15 point games. he and dwight are the only two players to do this since 2001.

amongst davis, aldridge, love and blake, blake gives up the highest PER against opposing PF's. love gives up the least. love finished with a PER of #4 in the league while any other PF didn't even finish in the top 20.

love's win share is higher than blake's by a wide margin despite clippers winning 17 more games.

against blake, love posted 45/19/6 and 23/19/7 and against aldridge, love posted 29/15/9.

love's on/off court rating is 27.1. griffin is 20.4.

so love is top 1-5 in ppg, rpg, 3's and FTA at his position. the only other PF that arguably has his offensive impact is dirk. the gap between blake and love defensively cannot make up for the gap on offense. oh and when love sits on the bench, his team struggles mightily as his +/- suggests.

griffin is right there w/ his improved post game and defense. i think cp3 going down for a bit and his playoff emergence really helped him grow and he's still only 24.

you'll see though...minny will be a bottom 5-10 team next season while cavs go on to win 65 games. lebron will get due credit and love will probably be overlooked.

wow this is some really good info. didnt know much about Love but it seems like a lot of people are underrating him

[dubeta]

love.

leads all PF's in apg. best outlet passer PF in the game.

despite the ability to hit 3's at a good clip, he also draws more fouls than blake...and hits them at a much higher rate, thus getting the opposing teams into foul trouble and not being a liability late.

when on the court, love was a part of four of the top five of minny's defensive units. his post defense is actually decent as he uses angles and leverage. he's not good at closing out. neither of these guys are really good defensively, so what's the point in murking love?

love led the league in double-doubles and had three triple doubles.

love has recorded nine 30/15 point games and 22 25/15 point games. he and dwight are the only two players to do this since 2001.

amongst davis, aldridge, love and blake, blake gives up the highest PER against opposing PF's. love gives up the least. love finished with a PER of #4 in the league while any other PF didn't even finish in the top 20.

love's win share is higher than blake's by a wide margin despite clippers winning 17 more games.

against blake, love posted 45/19/6 and 23/19/7 and against aldridge, love posted 29/15/9.

love's on/off court rating is 27.1. griffin is 20.4.

so love is top 1-5 in ppg, rpg, apg, 3's and FTA at his position...basically every statistical cat and he crushes in a couple areas. the only other PF that arguably has his offensive impact is dirk. the gap between blake and love defensively cannot make up for the gap on offense. oh and when love sits on the bench, his team struggles mightily as his +/- suggests.

griffin is right there w/ his improved post game and defense. i think cp3 going down for a bit and his playoff emergence really helped him grow and he's still only 24.

you'll see though...minny will be a bottom 5-10 team next season while cavs go on to win 65 games. lebron will get due credit and love will probably be overlooked.

empty stats brah

[blacknapalm]

empty stats brah

if i had a quarter for every time that was said...

what about the non #'s part? the defensive lineups, his +/- on/off court. those are at least measurable in some ways. synergy also has all the plays where's he posted on the block on defense and like i said, he's decent there. he held opponents to .75 ppp which is definitely respectable. he doesn't block shots or steal really, but he bodies up and makes it more difficult for them to get their shot off.

he admittedly sucks at closing out and is sometimes flat footed in open space, but i'm sure being around lebron will only help.

i can state what i see visually as fact but that simply gets brushed over cuz playoffs = all here. then folks will be hypocritical and criticize players that make it to the finals and lose. as if, being in the big dance was some huge disappointment because they lost and they are suddenly not 'clutch, regardless of competition, lineups, teammates, chemistry, mismatches and coaches. it's unfortunately the difference between a guy who carried a team to the finals 3 times and lost vs. a guy who peaked shortly and won it his first time going.

as if love was on some super talented team in the east. if you want to dismiss PER, i guess you have to dismiss win shares as well. does that only apply to love?

if he does it in the playoffs, it's not empty? he'll thrive in blatt's princeton hybrid offense, especially if irving takes a step forward in his 3 point shooting.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

empty stats brah

RAPM (adjusted plus-minus) of +6.4 to Blake's +5.0...

Team went 1-4 without him and 39-38 with him...

[qrich]

love.

leads all PF's in apg. best outlet passer PF in the game.

Blake isn't far behind in the overall passing game, and is better at putting the ball on the court to push the tempo after a rebound.

despite the ability to hit 3's at a good clip, he also draws more fouls than blake...and hits them at a much higher rate, thus getting the opposing teams into foul trouble and not being a liability late.

Blake gets jobbed on a bunch of no-calls, and has been steady improving his FT%, from 52.1 to 71.5.

when on the court, love was a part of four of the top five of minny's defensive units. his post defense is actually decent as he uses angles and leverage. he's not good at closing out. neither of these guys are really good defensively, so what's the point in murking love?

Sam Cassell was on four of the top five top Clipper defensive units in 2005-06. Are we really using that? Blake is an average to solid defender, while, Love, is a mediocre to poor defender.

love led the league in double-doubles and had three triple doubles.

Put love next to Jordan (13.6 boards) and Blake next to Pek (8-9 boards), and let's see if the double-doubles remain the same.

love has recorded nine 30/15 point games and 22 25/15 point games. he and dwight are the only two players to do this since 2001.

So an arbitrary stat denotes much?

amongst davis, aldridge, love and blake, blake gives up the highest PER against opposing PF's. love gives up the least. love finished with a PER of #4 in the league while any other PF didn't even finish in the top 20.

Going back to 2005-06 Sam Cassell, his opponent counterpart average per48 is better than: Russell Westbrook, Kirk Hinrich, Mike Conley, Jrue Holiday, Eric Bledsoe and John Wall, from this past season.

love's win share is higher than blake's by a wide margin despite clippers winning 17 more games.

Cool to having a WS higher, but less actual wins. Blake improved the Clippers by 3 wins his rookie season. Love went from 24 his rookie year, to 15 his sophomore and than 17 his third year.

against blake, love posted 45/19/6 and 23/19/7 and against aldridge, love posted 29/15/9.

Love also had 10/12/8 with 5 turnovers on 2-14. 10/7/2 on 4-13. 12/10/3 on 4-9.

Blake has scored under 20 ONCE in the 11 match-ups. Much more consistent.

love's on/off court rating is 27.1. griffin is 20.4.

Considering Cassell's Opponents Per/Five Man, he also had a higher on/off rating than most of the prior names I mentioned.

so love is top 1-5 in ppg, rpg, apg, 3's and FTA at his position...basically every statistical cat and he crushes in a couple areas. the only other PF that arguably has his offensive impact is dirk. the gap between blake and love defensively cannot make up for the gap on offense. oh and when love sits on the bench, his team struggles mightily as his +/- suggests.

Cool, Kaman was once put up just under 16/14.

griffin is right there w/ his improved post game and defense. i think cp3 going down for a bit and his playoff emergence really helped him grow and he's still only 24.

Just right there. Okay!

you'll see though...minny will be a bottom 5-10 team next season while cavs go on to win 65 games. lebron will get due credit and love will probably be overlooked.

Well yeah, any time a team gives up its best player for an unknown rookie, they struggle. It's like using how bad the Pelicans were post Paul to show the impact Paul had (though, he actually won games).

But, I mean, will the Wolves have wins in the teens for consecutive seasons again?

[blacknapalm]

Blake isn't far behind in the overall passing game, and is better at putting the ball on the court to push the tempo after a rebound.

blake's better off the dribble, i'll give you that. he's the more flashy passer. however, love is also a mean bounce passer. he's just a fundamental passer and doesn't need to put the ball on the floor to rack up assists. i didn't even bring up TO's. love had 1.8 TOs to griffin's 2.5 TOs. diaw just showed the world that you can be a lethal passer without having crazy athleticism or flash.

i never said griffin was a bad passer. love is more versatile and a better pure passer. he'll even throw some behind the head no look passes on the dime stuff.

Blake gets jobbed on a bunch of no-calls, and has been steady improving his FT%, from 52.1 to 71.5.

no argument there but one season doesn't make for improved FT shooting for a career. he still has a hitch in his shot that he needs to improve. his mechanics need to get more consistent. if he keeps it up again, good on him. point still stands...love draws more fouls and hits FT's at a higher clip. griffin has a ways to get close to about 81%.

Sam Cassell was on four of the top five top Clipper defensive units in 2005-06. Are we really using that? Blake is an average to solid defender, while, Love, is a mediocre to poor defender.

straw man argument. cassell was never seen as the franchise player. that might not be the best stat but it's only one in several i posted. i'm not sure you can say blake is more than an average defender at this point. he still fouls too much, for one. he's made progress but needs consistency.

Put love next to Jordan (13.6 boards) and Blake next to Pek (8-9 boards), and let's see if the double-doubles remain the same.

what about in '10-'11 when love led the entire league in rebounds? vs. a healthy dwight. love is just the better rebound, point blank. boxes out, elite timing, strong hands.

Going back to 2005-06 Sam Cassell, his opponent counterpart average per48 is better than: Russell Westbrook, Kirk Hinrich, Mike Conley, Jrue Holiday, Eric Bledsoe and John Wall, from this past season.

cassell again? he was a sparkplug playing in a nearly ideal situation. i'm sure we could do monta ellis favors in this realm. again, you can debunk a point or two, but my post was more about the entire spectrum.

Cool to having a WS higher, but less actual wins. Blake improved the Clippers by 3 wins his rookie season. Love went from 24 his rookie year, to 15 his sophomore and than 17 his third year.

well, when your team gets gradually more talented via players and coaches, that would make sense. minny never really had any consistency in that regard. the barometer is still on love's side. are you more likely to pull out wins when your team is down single digits or double digits like minny faced so often? point is, love made it so minny was at least within striking distance. also, griffin had a guy named cp3 to lean on late in games. griffin had...pek and rubio?

Love also had 10/12/8 with 5 turnovers on 2-14. 10/7/2 on 4-13. 12/10/3 on 4-9.

fair point. we can all pick out games and that really was not a good argument from me. i was just trying to show that love can not only statistically hang with the elite but outright outplay them in many cases.

Blake has scored under 20 ONCE in the 11 match-ups. Much more consistent.

bravo. no really, he deserves credit there and they always have entertaining matchups.

Considering Cassell's Opponents Per/Five Man, he also had a higher on/off rating than most of the prior names I mentioned.

....are you cassell's brother? you are now looking at anomalies and exceptions to the fact.

Cool, Kaman was once put up just under 19/14.

not in the same season. brand would have been a better choice here. actually go compare brand's on/off to cassell's.

Just right there. Okay!

i couldn't tell if this was sarcastic or not, but ya, i do think love is a top 3-4 PF in the game and has shown legit, tangible improvement. i think davis is going to surpass both these guys.

[qrich]

blake's better off the dribble, i'll give you that. he's the more flashy passer. however, love is also a mean bounce passer. he's just a fundamental passer and doesn't need to put the ball on the floor to rack up assists. i didn't even bring up TO's. love had 1.8 TO's to griffin's 2.5 TOs. diaw just showed the world that you can be a lethal passer without having crazy athleticism or flash.

i never said griffin was a bad passer. love is more versatile and a better pure passer. he'll even throw some behind the head no look passes on the dime stuff.

A good amount of Blake's turnovers come when he attacks, doesn't hear a whistle and tries to make a pass. Though, he is iffy with running doubles.

no argument there but one season doesn't make for improved FT shooting for a career. he still has a hitch on his shot that he needs to improve. his mechanics need to get more consistent. if he keeps it up again, good on him. point still stands...love draws more fouls and hits FT's at a higher clip.

It was a gradual season climb when a new shooting coach was added, who is remaining with the team, so a rise is expected to continue.

straw man argument. cassell was never seen as the franchise player. that might not be the best stat but it's only one in several i posted. i'm not sure you can say blake is more than an average defender at this point. he still fouls too much, for one. he's made progress but needs consistency.

Cassell was the leader of the team? Franchise title or not, the team went as he did.

what about in '10-'11 when love led the entire league in rebounds? vs. a healthy dwight. love is just the better rebound, point blank. boxes out, elite timing, strong hands.

That was impressive, 15.2 is a good number, but the second highest was also 5.6 rebound Beasley, then 5.2 then 3.0 (guys who played more than 4 games). Blake's best is 12.1 but shared the court with 7.6/7.2 before a drop off to 3.3.

cassell again? he was a sparkplug playing in a nearly ideal situation. i'm sure we could do monta ellis favors in this realm. again, you can debunk a point or two, but my post was more about the entire spectrum.

A sparkplug is someone like Jamal Crawford, Isaiah Thomas, Eric Bledsoe (Clipper days). Cassell was the leader of the team, and has always thought to be a defender on the level of Steve Nash.

well, when your team gets gradually more talented via players and coaches, that would make sense. minny never really had any consistency in that regard. the barometer is still on love's side. are you more likely to pull out wins when your team is down single digits or double digits like minny faced so often?

Considering Minnesota had the more games within 3, and five more over double digits. Lack of help is a good argument for lack of playoff appearances, but winning a combined 32 games in two seasons?

fair point. we can all pick out games and that really was not a good argument from me. i was just trying to show that love can not only statistically hang with the elite but outright murder them in some cases.

bravo. no really, he deserves credit there and they always have entertaining matchups.

For as often as he has murdered anyone, he has been murdered himself by being inconsistent.

....are you cassell's brother? you are now looking at anomalies and exceptions to the fact.

He's a perfect example to debunk some of these defensive stats.

not in the same season. brand would have been a better choice here. actually go compare brand's on/off to cassell's.

Has to do with ranking when it comes to stats versus position. IIRC, only Dwight & Yao had a higher PT+REB+BLK combination among Centers that year.


[QUOTEi couldn't tell if this was sarcastic or not, but ya, i do think love is a top 3-4 PF in the game. i think davis is going to surpass both these guys.[/QUOTE]

Love is top five hands down, currently #3 for me.

I just can't place a guy that wins 32 games in two seasons as the top in his position, just can't.

[blacknapalm]

A good amount of Blake's turnovers come when he attacks, doesn't hear a whistle and tries to make a pass. Though, he is iffy with running doubles.

TO's are lost possessions. i don't want to hear about how a player is TO prone if he's a good ball handler and passer in the open court while playing next to cp3, arguably the best PG (to me, he is). griffin played around better finishers yet had less assists and more TO's.

It was a gradual season climb when a new shooting coach was added, who is remaining with the team, so a rise is expected to continue.

the mechanics still need to improve for him to reach consistency. if he gets to 75-80% next season, i won't say anything, mechanics or not.

That was impressive, 15.2 is a good number, but the second highest was also 5.6 rebound Beasley, then 5.2 then 3.0 (guys who played more than 4 games). Blake's best is 12.1 but shared the court with 7.6/7.2 before a drop off to 3.3.

the vast majority of love's rebounds come off the defensive glass, but he also follows up a lot on his shots. it's one of the main reasons why cleveland is going to be troublesome especially if varejao stays healthy. now he'll be able to kick it right back out to irving or lebron if he doesn't get a an early cut from bron or has an outlet pass. in the halfcourt set, we can see bron setting backside screens and plenty of love/irving corner 3's.

in the 88-89 season, mchale averaged 8.9 boards to parish's 12.5. if it were that easy, wouldn't teams keep love from rebounding? he's an elite rebounder. don't try to spin it to say his stats are inflated because of teammates. that's only to a certain extent. once he leads cleveland in rebounding, we'll see a new set of excuses. btw, outlet passes sort of include grabbing the board, surveying the court and passing out right away. corner 3 irving? splash.

welp, i'm done on this front. i know you'll protect clips/ucla.

[Jlamb47]

I Guess Kyrie And Love Suck Now That Lebron Is On The Team. They Were Both All Stars Last Year Scoring 20+ Points And They Suck All Of A Sudden. Lebron Stans Are Bitches

[Dragic4Life]

I Guess Kyrie And Love Suck Now That Lebron Is On The Team. They Were Both All Stars Last Year Scoring 20+ Points And They Suck All Of A Sudden. Lebron Stans Are Bitches

Spurs = most stacked franchise of all time.

[r15mohd]

How so?

Kevin Love HAS peaked. 24/12 is the best he could do for the rest of his career, he's not going to go better than that.

Meanwhile, barring injury, Griffin has the potential to be the best PF of all time, he's like a combination of Shawn Kemp and Charles Barkley. Work on his defense and he adds Duncan to the mix.

I'll take Griffin and a handful of other PF over Love now.

he'll never amount to what TD has done in his career, and continues to do

[JerrySeinfeld]

As a sidekick it's Love.

As a first option it's Griffin.

[miles berg]

Neither is all that great honestly. Both being carried by far superior players in CP3 and LBJ.