Shaq Or Wilt Or Olajuwon Or Duncan

[swi7ch]

I leave you with a quote. I think this guy knows something about basketball:

Like I said, Olajuwon is the only C that has no weakness and I'm glad the GOAT agrees with me!

[PTB Fan]

They can go in any order.. doesn't matter.

All of them were dominant forces for sure.

[jlauber]

i think russell kareem whole different level than them

Interesting...check out the Wilt-Russell H2H's sometime. It was pretty ugly at times.

As for the Kareem-Wilt debate... Wilt played against Kareem in ONE game before he shredded his knee, and just dominated him. In fact, here are some interesting facts:

1. Kareem came into the NBA in the 69-70 season. Just the year before, Chamberlain poured in games of 60 and 66 points, against the same centers that Kareem would face for several years. Kareem's career high game, in his 20 year career, was 55 points.

2. And how about the start to the 69-70 season? In Wilt's first nine games, he was averaging a league-leading 32.2 ppg, along with 20 rpg, and shooting .600 in the process. Included in those nine games was that pounding of Kareem. Wilt blew out his knee in that ninth game, and was never the same offensively again. Kareem finished the year with a 28.8 ppg .518 season. Now, clearly Kareem was a rookie, and would become much better, BUT, Wilt was 33 and playing in his 11th season in that 69-70 season, and was ALSO, nowhere near his prime.

3. In the entire 70-71 season, covering ten H2H games (five of them in the post-season) a statistically PRIME Kareem, in arguably his greatest season, was matched point-for-point, shot-for-shot, and rebound-for-rebound by a 34 year old Wilt, who was only a year removed from major knee surgery.

4. In the 71-72 WCF's, virtually EVERYONE who WATCHED that series, including the MILWAUKEE coach and press, claimed that a 35 year old Wilt outplayed the 25 year old Kareem. Time Magazine hailed Wilt's performance as a DECISIVE win by Wilt.

5. A PRIME Chamberlain just MURDERED HOF centers like Reed, Bellamy, and even Thurmond. In his "scoring seasons", he had entire SEASONS, ususally covering 9-10 H2H games against those three, in which he just CRUSHED them. For instance, in his 64-65 season, he played against Reed in nine H2H games, and averaged 40.1 ppg against him, including two games in which he outscored Reed by 52-23 and 58-28 margins (and another one by a 41-9 margin.)

And how about Chamberlain against Bellamy. One of the most one-sided "rivalry's" in NBA history. In his 62-63 season, Wilt bashed Bellamy to the tune of a 43.7 ppg average in their 10 H2H games, which included games of 50, 51, 54, and 57 points. And, as bad as that was, in Chamberlain's historic 61-62 season he averaged a mind-blowing 52.7 ppg against Bellamy in their 10 H2H games, including games of 50, 51, 55, 61, 61 and 73 points. In his WORST game against Bellamy that season, we now have evidence of this...a 34 point, 33 rebound, 20 block game...or his SECOND double-triple-double game of his career (his other being a 22 point, 25 rebound, 21 assist game against the Pistons in '68.)

And a PRIME "scoring" Wilt faced the 6-11 HOFer Thurmond in about a dozen games. From their last H2H game in the 64-65 season, then thru their nine H2H games in the 65-66 season, and into their first H2H game of the '67 season (a year in which Chamberlain dramatically cut back his shooting), Wilt averaged 29.9 ppg against Nate...outscoring him in 10 of those 11 H2H's, and including games of 30, 33, 34, 34, 38, and 45 points. And he was just burying Nate in those games, too (he outscored him 33-10, 38-15, and 45-13 in three of them.)

Why was that important? Because a PRIME Kareem faced all three of those guys many times, and he never came CLOSE to that kind of domination against them. He even faced Thurmond in some 50 H2H games, and very seldom even scored 30+ against him, and his HIGH game against Nate was 34 points.

Now, what we never witnessed was a PRIME "scoring" Chamberlain against any version of Kareem. Those of us that actually SAW the two play, to a man, would claim that a PRIME Wilt would outplay a PRIME Kareem, if not abuse him.

[LBJMVP]

Interesting...check out the Wilt-Russell H2H's sometime. It was pretty ugly at times.

As for the Kareem-Wilt debate... Wilt played against Kareem in ONE game before he shredded his knee, and just dominated him. In fact, here are some interesting facts:

1. Kareem came into the NBA in the 69-70 season. Just the year before, Chamberlain poured in games of 60 and 66 points, against the same centers that Kareem would face for several years. Kareem's career high game, in his 20 year career, was 55 points.

2. And how about the start to the 69-70 season? In Wilt's first nine games, he was averaging a league-leading 32.2 ppg, along with 20 rpg, and shooting .600 in the process. Included in those nine games was that pounding of Kareem. Wilt blew out his knee in that ninth game, and was never the same offensively again. Kareem finished the year with a 28.8 ppg .518 season. Now, clearly Kareem was a rookie, and would become much better, BUT, Wilt was 33 and playing in his 11th season in that 69-70 season, and was ALSO, nowhere near his prime.

3. In the entire 70-71 season, covering ten H2H games (five of them in the post-season) a statistically PRIME Kareem, in arguably his greatest season, was matched point-for-point, shot-for-shot, and rebound-for-rebound by a 34 year old Wilt, who was only a year removed from major knee surgery.

4. In the 71-72 WCF's, virtually EVERYONE who WATCHED that series, including the MILWAUKEE coach and press, claimed that a 35 year old Wilt outplayed the 25 year old Kareem. Time Magazine hailed Wilt's performance as a DECISIVE win by Wilt.

5. A PRIME Chamberlain just MURDERED HOF centers like Reed, Bellamy, and even Thurmond. In his "scoring seasons", he had entire SEASONS, ususally covering 9-10 H2H games against those three, in which he just CRUSHED them. For instance, in his 64-65 season, he played against Reed in nine H2H games, and averaged 40.1 ppg against him, including two games in which he outscored Reed by 52-23 and 58-28 margins (and another one by a 41-9 margin.)

And how about Chamberlain against Bellamy. One of the most one-sided "rivalry's" in NBA history. In his 62-63 season, Wilt bashed Bellamy to the tune of a 43.7 ppg average in their 10 H2H games, which included games of 50, 51, 54, and 57 points. And, as bad as that was, in Chamberlain's historic 61-62 season he averaged a mind-blowing 52.7 ppg against Bellamy in their 10 H2H games, including games of 50, 51, 55, 61, 61 and 73 points. In his WORST game against Bellamy that season, we now have evidence of this...a 34 point, 33 rebound, 20 block game...or his SECOND double-triple-double game of his career (his other being a 22 point, 25 rebound, 21 assist game against the Pistons in '68.)

And a PRIME "scoring" Wilt faced the 6-11 HOFer Thurmond in about a dozen games. From their last H2H game in the 64-65 season, then thru their nine H2H games in the 65-66 season, and into their first H2H game of the '67 season (a year in which Chamberlain dramatically cut back his shooting), Wilt averaged 29.9 ppg against Nate...outscoring him in 10 of those 11 H2H's, and including games of 30, 33, 34, 34, 38, and 45 points. And he was just burying Nate in those games, too (he outscored him 33-10, 38-15, and 45-13 in three of them.)

Why was that important? Because a PRIME Kareem faced all three of those guys many times, and he never came CLOSE to that kind of domination against them. He even faced Thurmond in some 50 H2H games, and very seldom even scored 30+ against him, and his HIGH game against Nate was 34 points.

Now, what we never witnessed was a PRIME "scoring" Chamberlain against any version of Kareem. Those of us that actually SAW the two play, to a man, would claim that a PRIME Wilt would outplay a PRIME Kareem, if not abuse him.

you actually make some good arguements. i do believe wilt would be great today, but he wouldnt be the same scoring machine. though some players in the 60s could still be alltime greats today i still maintain that most of them wouldnt be in the nba

[DMAVS41]

Based closely on the accepted criteria of ranking players:

1. Russell
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Duncan
5. Shaq
6. Hakeem

Hakeem is difficult to rank for me because we simply have no idea what he would have done with the kind of help that Russell, Kareem, and Shaq had. There is a good chance that with loaded teams throughout his career...Hakeem could have gone down as the best or 2nd best center of all time.

Horry recently said that Hakeem was definitely better than Duncan and Shaq. Just one man's opinion of course, but sadly we will just never know what he could have done.

[jlauber]

Like I said, Olajuwon is the only C that has no weakness and I'm glad the GOAT agrees with me!

Hakeem was not in his prime in his first two seasons, to be sure, but the same could also certainly be said of Kareem, who was 37 and 38 (actually 38 and 39) in those two years. The two played H2H (and guarded each other for nearly the entire games) in 10 games in those two years.

In those 10 straight games, Kareem averaged 31.8 ppg on .630 shooting against him, which included THREE games of 40+ (40 on 16-29 shooting, 42 on 16-24 shooting, and 46 points on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes.)

In fact, Kareem, from age 37 thru 41 (here again it was actually closer to 38 thru 42), faced a 23 thru 26 year old Hakeem in 23 H2H games (when they actually guarded each other), and averaged 22.6 ppg on .610 shooting against him (Hakeem was at 22.3 ppg on .512 shooting against him.)

As a point of reference, a PRIME Shaq, and facing a fading Hakeem, in the '99 playoffs, had his career high game versus Hakeem, when he scored 37 points in the deciding game of that series.

[June1026]

Olajuwon

there is no one in the history of NBA that deserves the statement "single handedly carried a team to championship", more than this guy.

[millwad]

You obviously not only never saw Chamberlain play, you have also not even viewed any video footage of him, either. Nor have you done any research into just how dominant he was against his peers, MANY of whom are in the HOF.

Old fart, you only saw Wilt on youtube and after some quotes..

[millwad]

Hakeem was not in his prime in his first two seasons, to be sure, but the same could also certainly be said of Kareem, who was 37 and 38 (actually 38 and 39) in those two years. The two played H2H (and guarded each other for nearly the entire games) in 10 games in those two years.

In those 10 straight games, Kareem averaged 31.8 ppg on .630 shooting against him, which included THREE games of 40+ (40 on 16-29 shooting, 42 on 16-24 shooting, and 46 points on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes.)

In fact, Kareem, from age 37 thru 41 (here again it was actually closer to 38 thru 42), faced a 23 thru 26 year old Hakeem in 23 H2H games (when they actually guarded each other), and averaged 22.6 ppg on .610 shooting against him (Hakeem was at 22.3 ppg on .512 shooting against him.)

As a point of reference, a PRIME Shaq, and facing a fading Hakeem, in the '99 playoffs, had his career high game versus Hakeem, when he scored 37 points in the deciding game of that series.

How butthurt can someone be to mention the same regular season games OVER and OVER and OVER again from a players rookie and 2nd year as pro where he was no where close to his prime. And still the same 2nd year pro abused Kareem and the Lakers in the playoffs, you suck so much, Jlauber.

[Jotaro Durant]

Based closely on the accepted criteria of ranking players:

1. Russell
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Duncan
5. Shaq
6. Hakeem

Hakeem is difficult to rank for me because we simply have no idea what he would have done with the kind of help that Russell, Kareem, and Shaq had. There is a good chance that with loaded teams throughout his career...Hakeem could have gone down as the best or 2nd best center of all time.

Horry recently said that Hakeem was definitely better than Duncan and Shaq. Just one man's opinion of course, but sadly we will just never know what he could have done.

u seem to be someone who is somehwat of duncan supporter so how do u feel about duncan above wilt on alltime rankings?not say duncan better player but overall espeicalley career............

[DMAVS41]

u seem to be someone who is somehwat of duncan supporter so how do u feel about duncan above wilt on alltime rankings?not say duncan better player but overall espeicalley career............

I didn't see Wilt play so its really hard for me. From all the research I've done and the books I've read and what basketball historians say....it seems like Wilt should be ranked over him.

But with Russell and Wilt....I just never saw them play so its difficult for me to rank them all time.

I do think Duncan will forever be historically under-rated. If you ranked players on what they accomplished based on their circumstances....Duncan might finish 2nd all time. I don't see how anyone could pass Russell in a debate like that.

But Duncan has the best win percentage of his era (well...only parker and manu have higher ones...LOL)...he won 4 titles without an all nba player. He didn't get to immediately play for a HOF proven coach like kobe and shaq did.

Duncan was unbelievably clutch on both ends...as more information is coming out we see this on paper. He's one of the best two way players ever. He's a great leader. He is loyal and unselfish and always put the team first.

He's just the epitome of what I'd want in a franchise player. Definitely the best player of the post MJ generation in my opinion. He's just a winner...if "winning" was a trait....Duncan has it in spades.

I don't know exactly where he should end up, but he's in my top 6.

[millwad]

4. In the 71-72 WCF's, virtually EVERYONE who WATCHED that series, including the MILWAUKEE coach and press, claimed that a 35 year old Wilt outplayed the 25 year old Kareem. Time Magazine hailed Wilt's performance as a DECISIVE win by Wilt.

Again a pure crap post by you...
"Everyone" just got a new meaning, Time Magazine wrote that he got the best of Kareem in the last game of the series.

You are so stupid that you actually used to spam about how Kareem absolutely got "murdered", "abused", "killed" and "dominated" by Wilt in that series...

Kareem freaking outscored the helpless Wilt with 23 points per game and he shot with a higher FG%...

And please, can you act again like you "remember" that series a la writing that Kareem got 20 skyhooks blocked in that series?

Haha, you are just so stupid, acting like you remember a 40 year old series while you even couldn't remember how "good" Wilt's era was just a few years ago..

You changed your mind over quotes and youtube..

[millwad]

Olajuwon

there is no one in the history of NBA that deserves the statement "single handedly carried a team to championship", more than this guy.

Wilt does, lets not forget how Wilt won his rings while he lead his teams in scoring..

* Oops, I meant while being the tied 2nd and fourth option on offense..

[PTB Fan]

Interesting...check out the Wilt-Russell H2H's sometime. It was pretty ugly at times.

Ugly for Russell? Not really.

4. In the 71-72 WCF's, virtually EVERYONE who WATCHED that series, including the MILWAUKEE coach and press, claimed that a 35 year old Wilt outplayed the 25 year old Kareem. Time Magazine hailed Wilt's performance as a DECISIVE win by Wilt.

Show me a proof.

[millwad]

Oh and ranking these 4 gentlemen..

I have it like this;

1. Shaq/Hakeem (I have them tied on the all-time list currently but I don't mind Shaq over Hakeem or the other way around.

2. Duncan

3. Wilt