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Re: Team possessions per game (pace) divided by team apg = possesions per assist
Originally Posted by Bankaii
Are you really arguing that Wade is as good of a playmaker as Pippen?
He probably is.
Playmaking includes creating shots for yourself and teammates.
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Trust the process.
Re: Team possessions per game (pace) divided by team apg = possesions per assist
Originally Posted by GrapeApe
Absolutely.
On what basis?
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NBA Legend and Hall of Famer
Re: Team possessions per game (pace) divided by team apg = possesions per assist
Originally Posted by Bankaii
My goodness. For your sake let's say Wade is as good of a playmaker as Pippen (he isn't), that means both Lebron and Jordan had another playmaker on their team. Lebron only had Wade 4 years btw.
Care to explain why even tho Jordan had a higher usage rate his assist percentage for his team was lower than Lebron's if Lebron is so ball dominant?
what a meltdown
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Re: Team possessions per game (pace) divided by team apg = possesions per assist
http://bkref.com/tiny/cIGyr
Across the board Dwyane Wade's APG numbers are higher.
Scoring isn't even a question.
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Re: Team possessions per game (pace) divided by team apg = possesions per assist
Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen played in a triangle, a system'd offense that utilizes multiple players during possessions.
Lebron James and Dwyane Wade played in a drive and kick offense, which is iso oriented.
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Trust the process.
Re: Team possessions per game (pace) divided by team apg = possesions per assist
Originally Posted by Fallen Angel
Wade has also been the primary guy for his entire career until Bron came. He's only average 1 more asp than a sidekick. Equal assists in the playoffs. That's not that great considering the circumstances. But Wade wasn't the point of my post.
Originally Posted by warriorfan
what a meltdown
There you go, shit posting is what you're good at
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NBA Legend and Hall of Famer
Re: Team possessions per game (pace) divided by team apg = possesions per assist
Originally Posted by Bankaii
all you did was prove the Bulls as a TEAM were better passers than Lebron's TEAMS.
Every single one of Lebron's teams is a far worse passing team??... Whether it's Cleveland, Miami, or back to Cleveland?
Obviously, Lebron is the common denominator.. It's not rocket science..
Originally Posted by Bankaii
MJ had Pippen whom was a point forward to handle most of the PG and playmaking duties.
Playoff assist % during first 3-peat (1991-1993):
Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...yoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...yoffs_advanced
Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):
Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...yoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...yoffs_advanced
[COLOR="Red"] As you can see, MJ assisted on a FAR higher percentage of teammates FG's, while scoring literally 50-100% more... This is a statistical fact[/COLOR]
Originally Posted by Bankaii
Lebron has never had a teammate anywhere near his level as a passer or playmaker.
Wade was an elite primary ballhandler - he compares to Pippen's playmaking for sure.
And Lebron had Kyrie too - he had Kyrie all regular season (with Love too), and won a mighty 53 games, but still had a very high possessions-per-assist figure (4.18 possessions per assist - higher than all of MJ's teams).
Originally Posted by Bankaii
And before you pull the whole "Lebron is too ball dominant for anyone else to be a playmaker" bullshit out MJ has a higher usage percentage for his team than Lebron in both the regular season and playoffs.
Usage has nothing to do with ball-domination... Usage = shot attempts + turnovers.. That's it.. Ball-domination has nothing to do with it.
Originally Posted by Bankaii
MJ is better offball, but Lebron is a better playmaker and passer, get over it.
This thread isn't about who is the better passer - this thread shows that everywhere Lebron goes, his teams have low playmaking capacity and low assist numbers.
But the reality is that MJ wasn't just a better off-ball player like you said - he was a better primary ballhandler and passer too.. MJ averaged 30/9/11 in 24 games at point guard at the end of the 1989 season, including 10 triple-doubles in 11 games - this is better than anything Lebron has done in his entire career as a ball-dominator.
Lebron had a stretch in 2010 where he averaged 30/7/11, but it was only for 12 games against lottery teams that averaged 34 wins, and no triple-double stretch.. Whereas MJ's stretch was twice as long while facing teams that averaged 45 wins (playoff teams).. and he had a triple-double stretch.
Last edited by 3ball; 09-06-2015 at 09:49 PM.
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Great college starter
Re: Team possessions per game (pace) divided by team apg = possesions per assist
Originally Posted by Bankaii
On what basis?
Statistics and eyes.
Wade has a higher career assist average and had a 6 year stretch ('05-'10) where he averaged 7 apg while also being his team's leading scorer. Wade has had multiple seasons finishing top 10 in the league in scoring and assists, including finishing 7th in assists while winning a scoring title. He won a championship as his team's top scorer, primary ball-handler, and playmaker. He's a far better penetrator and creator than Pippen ever was.
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Re: Team possessions per game (pace) divided by team apg = possesions per assist
not surprising. Would be nice to see what this is for the Thunder and Clippers.
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Banned (lol)
Re: Team possessions per game (pace) divided by team apg = possesions per assist
props to 3ball for that insightful post.
no, seriously
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Re: Team possessions per game (pace) divided by team apg = possesions per assist
this is to ether 3ball''s ast% logic (not necessarily the topic here, but it still works)
first threepeat
Jordan - 738 FGM (383 AST)
Pippen - 446 FGM (353 AST)
Others - 1111 FGM (591 AST)
http://bkref.com/tiny/Qme7S
second threepeat
Jordan - 657 FGM (239 AST)
Pippen - 363 FGM (289 AST)
Others - 991 FGM (704 AST)
http://bkref.com/tiny/Vkkm0
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1997+1998 Playoffs Combined
Jordan assisted by:
Pippen - 66 FGM (14% of FGM)
Others - 154 FGM
Unassisted - 250 FGM
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/s...nType=Playoffs
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/s...nType=Playoffs
pippenn assisted by:
Jordan - 40 FGM (16% of FGM)
Others - 102 FGM
Unassisted - 109 FGM
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/s...nType=Playoffs
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/s...nType=Playoffs
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carrying these percentages over to the first and second three-peats:
1991-93
Jordan assisted Pippen 446*16%~71 times (312 other assists)
Pippen assisted Jordan 738*14%~103 times (250 other assists)
1996-98
Jordan assisted Pippen 363*16%~58 times (181 other assists)
Pippen assisted Jordan 657*14%~92 times (197 other assists)
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conclusions:
1) ast% is unreliable here, because MJ took many more shots than scottie. ast% formula is 100 * AST / (((MP / (Tm MP / 5)) * Tm FG) - FG). mj taking more shots makes the
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454 Dumper
Re: Team possessions per game (pace) divided by team apg = possesions per assist
Originally Posted by warriorfan
Having a meltdown while we are having a mature basketball discussion isn't going to get you anywhere.
Slayed.
Niggah gonna bring up sucking dick while a calm, intelligent basketball discussion is going on
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NBA Legend
Re: Team possessions per game (pace) divided by team apg = possesions per assist
OP is stupid and doesn't even know why. One of the least convincing arguments in favor of Jordan I've seen. And I even agree Jordan > Lebron.
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Trust the process.
Re: Team possessions per game (pace) divided by team apg = possesions per assist
Originally Posted by 3ball
Every single one of Lebron's teams is a far worse passing team??... Whether it's Cleveland, Miami, or back to Cleveland?
Obviously, Lebron is the common denominator.. It's not rocket science..
Playoff assist % during first 3-peat (1991-1993):
Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...yoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...yoffs_advanced
Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):
Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...yoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...yoffs_advanced
[COLOR="Red"] As you can see, MJ assisted on a FAR higher percentage of teammates FG's, while scoring literally 50-100% more... This is a statistical fact[/COLOR]
Wade was an elite primary ballhandler - he compares to Pippen's playmaking for sure.
And Lebron had Kyrie too - he had Kyrie all regular season (with Love too), and won a mighty 53 games, but still had a very high possessions-per-assist figure (4.18 possessions per assist - higher than all of MJ's teams).
Usage has nothing to do with ball-domination... Usage = shot attempts + turnovers.. That's it.. Ball-domination has nothing to do with it.
This thread isn't about who is the better passer - this thread shows that everywhere Lebron goes, his teams have low playmaking capacity and low assist numbers.
But the reality is that MJ wasn't just a better off-ball player like you said - he was a better primary ballhandler and passer too.. MJ averaged 30/9/11 in 24 games at point guard at the end of the 1989 season, including 10 triple-doubles in 11 games - this is better than anything Lebron has done in his entire career as a ball-dominator.
Lebron had a stretch in 2010 where he averaged 30/7/11, but it was only for 12 games against lottery teams that averaged 34 wins, and no triple-double stretch.. Whereas MJ's stretch was twice as long while facing teams that averaged 45 wins (playoff teams).. and he had a triple-double stretch.
Going by your dumb logic, in 1995 when Jordan missed most the season the Bulls had 3.29 points per possession, which is their lowest of the Jordan era. Why was it so low the season he missed if he wasn't ball dominant?
And do you mind posting each teams stats before and after Lebron left? Since he's so ball dominant there should be a huge spike in the numbers.
Like how the 2010 Heat had 4.74(higher than any Bron team) before Lebron joined and 4.60(higher than any point Lebron was on the team) the year after he left.
He's so ball dominant their stats get worse without him
Inb4 professional athletes forgot how to play basketball without Bron ball.
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