Kareem vs. Walton (1977 WCF)

[chitownsfinest]

Nice to see this uploaded. Really hard to find full games from the 70s.

[Alhazred]

Bill Walton on him and Kareem.

"Kareem was the best player by far that I ever played against. My battles with Jabbar, next to winning championships, were the most exciting moments of my professional career. Everything I did as a basketball player, I did to beat him. I would be riding my bike up a hill, pumping iron, running, saying to myself, 'Jabbar, Jabbar, Jabbar...I'm going to get him'. He was my ideal opponent, my archrival, my motivation."

[ShaqAttack3234]

I heard he had a 43-18 game against the Warriors too. There is at least one video of a complete game from that series up (Game 6). When I watch it I will post it too. It gives another example of prime Kareem in action plus you get to see prime Barry.

I'll have to watch that one too. I've seen 2 or 3 complete games from the 1980 finals and a complete game from the 1970-71 season, but that's about it as far as prime Kareem.

[Roundball_Rock]

I just watched the first three minutes and Portland's perimeter players were killing LA.

It was a joke. They had trouble even getting the ball up court.

The setup was too perfect for the media to not run away with the story. You have a new up and coming white superstar named "Bill" who just swept the aloof muslim/black guy named "Kareem", wonder who the 70s media was cheering fo

Yup.

"Kareem was the best player by far that I ever played against. My battles with Jabbar, next to winning championships, were the most exciting moments of my professional career. Everything I did as a basketball player, I did to beat him. I would be riding my bike up a hill, pumping iron, running, saying to myself, 'Jabbar, Jabbar, Jabbar...I'm going to get him'. He was my ideal opponent, my archrival, my motivation."

The funny thing is when Simmons told Walton he outplayed Kareem Walton's reaction was and Walton said Kareem would drop 50 on him routinely. Obviously Kareem did not literally score 50+ each time but you get the point: KAJ consistently dominated Walton and Walton admitted it. Walton was a great player, though, as you can see in the video. Kareem was just greater.

I'll have to watch that one too. I've seen 2 or 3 complete games from the 1980 finals and a complete game from the 1970-71 season, but that's about it as far as prime Kareem.

Is that 1971 game online? Yeah, it sucks that there is so little out there pre-1980. You can find a lot of games on 80's and 90's legends but there is practically nothing pre-1980. A lot what is out there is just "Vintage NBA" 30 minute edited versions of games.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Is that 1971 game online? Yeah, it sucks that there is so little out there pre-1980. You can find a lot of games on 80's and 90's legends but there is practically nothing pre-1980. A lot what is out there is just "Vintage NBA" 30 minute edited versions of games.

Yeah, here is the thread where I posted the link.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=142962

[chitownsfinest]

The only player I can think of who dominated his era as good as Kareem dominated the 70s was Mj in the 90s. Can anyone name a year where Kareem wasn't the first or second best player in the L during that time?

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah, here is the thread where I posted the link.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=142962

Awesome. The fact that it was against the Knicks makes it even cooler because you get to see Reed and Frazier too.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Just watched the game and my impressions are the following.

First of all, it's apparent that Walton had a better team around him. Having a 20/10 PF with a jumpshot like Maurice Lucas as well as a team full of unselfish players who could score the ball is a big advantage. Lionel Hollins was also a solid guard and their ball movement was superior to the Lakers(in large part due to Walton, though).

And it's also obvious that Kareem was a much better scorer than Walton. He could score in a variety of ways over double teams and the degree of difficulty on his shots for a 7'2" center is extremely impressive. Walton was no slouch in that department though, he made atleast 4 nice bank shots and a gorgeous baseline ball fake move in the first half. Regardless, that aspect of the game goes to Kareem, easily.

However I was very impressed with how Walton boxed out Kareem in the first half, unsure of the rebounding numbers, but Kareem did get atleast 4 uncontested rebounds on missed perimeter jumpers. Rebounding overall would be about equal. Kareem may get a bit of an edge defensively, though.

However, Walton's passing was superior in this game, both in the halfcourt and his outlet passes. He set up a ton of cutters and I can't count how many points his bullet outlet passes led to. How many points did Walton create with his passing overall? A hell of a lot of them.

I wouldn't really say either player outplayed the other. Both had fantastic games, but their roles were different.

[Alhazred]

It was a joke. They had trouble even getting the ball up court.

I'm not sure if it was just the incompetence of LA's backcourt or Portland just having a good game, but Portland's guards were smothering LA's. I see why Snapper Jones made that comment about the guards determining those games.

The funny thing is when Simmons told Walton he outplayed Kareem Walton's reaction was and Walton said Kareem would drop 50 on him routinely. Obviously Kareem did not literally score 50+ each time but you get the point: KAJ consistently dominated Walton and Walton admitted it. Walton was a great player, though, as you can see in the video. Kareem was just greater.

Agreed. I like Simmons, but he's unquestionably a Celtics n*thugger.

[insidious301]

Kareem is the greatest basketball player ever. Clearly the most dominant. So dominant that his patented shot was NEVER blocked. Great video brother.

[Roundball_Rock]

Thanks for your analysis, ShaqAttack. I can see why you are arguing they were similar in this game. However, this was a subpar game for Kareem and he was still at minimum on par with Walton. Kareem averaged 35 ppg for the series. In this game he had 26 or 28 and in another he had 40 and 15-17 in a third. Actually, given his 35 ppg average that means he had 50+ in the other game. The available evidence suggests they battled to more or less a draw in two games and Kareem demolished him in the other two. In one game we know Kareem had 40/17 to Walton's 14/17. Hence I believe it is fair to say that Kareem outplayed Walton in the series. Walton's passing is not enough to overcome such a disparity in scoring over the series, especially since Kareem he was probably better defensively. Also Walton was helped by having teammates who could score when they got the ball!

I'm not sure if it was just the incompetence of LA's backcourt or Portland just having a good game, but Portland's guards were smothering LA's. I see why Snapper Jones made that comment about the guards determining those games.

Evidently they just sucked based on Jone's comment, video of this game and the clips Fatal posted in an older thread from this game showing LA's guards getting embarassed. Kareem also had no power forward after Washington got hurt. In fact, Kareem never played with a 10 rpg PF in his career.

I like Simmons, but he's unquestionably a Celtics n*thugger.

I agree.

Kareem is the greatest basketball player ever.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Thanks for your analysis, ShaqAttack. I can see why you are arguing they were similar in this game. However, this was a subpar game for Kareem and he was still at minimum on par with Walton. Kareem averaged 35 ppg for the series. In this game he had 26 or 28 and in another he had 40 and 15-17 in a third. Actually, given his 35 ppg average that means he had 50+ in the other game. The available evidence suggests they battled to more or less a draw in two games and Kareem demolished him in the other two. In one game we know Kareem had 40/17 to Walton's 14/17. Hence I believe it is fair to say that Kareem outplayed Walton in the series. Walton's passing is not enough to overcome such a disparity in scoring over the series, especially since Kareem he was probably better defensively. Also Walton was helped by having teammates who could score when they got the ball!

I think Kareem's averages for the series were 30.3 ppg, 16 rpg, 3.8 bpg, 61 FG% while Walton's were 19.3 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 5.8 apg, 2.3 bpg, 51 FG%.

The 35 ppg were for the entire playoffs, not the Portland series. I agree that Walton's teammates being better finishers is a factor and 40/17 vs 14/17 is domination. But I've only seen one game from the series so I can't speak about who was better throughout the series.

[Roundball_Rock]

No, Kareem in his autobiography says 35 ppg in the series, or at least it sounds like he is talking about the series.

...The games were close, the last three decided by under 6 points each, but all I read about in the papers and magazines was 'Portland Shocks LA, Walton Outduels Jabbar.' I averaged 35 points a game; I was doing everything I could do, but I was playing against tough competition and not getting great help. Maurice Lucas outrebounded Don Ford something like 50 to 12 in the four games, but the press stories read...'Walton made Kareem look terrible,' 'Walton's the greatest center to ever play the game.' There was something personal in the glee with which those opinions were reported; I felt as if another piece of me was being chipped away. I've had to deal with that blend of racism and envy my entire career...You can bet if Bill and I had both been black, you wouldn't have heard such crowing."

Pg. 276.

I agree it is hard to speak about the series since none of us has seen all four games. I am going by the available evidence. Snapper Jones saw the entire series and he said Kareem crushed Walton. Walton himself has said the same thing. I notice that none of the Walton>Kareem people on ISH have appeared in this thread now that video of a full game is available. If there is a case to be made for Walton for some odd reason no one is making it now--not even Walton himself--although the media at the time did but, as Kareem explained, race was a huge factor as was Kareem's aloof and controversial personality.

[Fatal9]

I think he might have meant 35 ppg for the whole playoffs, or didn't know the stats specifically but felt like he averaged around 35 ppg (which I guess is in the same ballpark). I think he averaged around 30-31 ppg because he averaged like 38/18/5/4 or something outrageous like that in the 7 game series vs. the Warriors. Still gotta love how the guy putting up 30/16/4/4 on 60+% (which are close to Shaq's numbers in those dominant finals) got "outplayed"

[ShaqAttack3234]

No, Kareem in his autobiography says 35 ppg in the series, or at least it sounds like he is talking about the series.



Pg. 276.

I agree it is hard to speak about the series since none of us has seen all four games. I am going by the available evidence. Snapper Jones saw the entire series and he said Kareem crushed Walton. Walton himself has said the same thing. I notice that none of the Walton>Kareem people on ISH have appeared in this thread now that video of a full game is available. If there is a case to be made for Walton for some odd reason no one is making it now--not even Walton himself--although the media at the time did but, as Kareem explained, race was a huge factor as was Kareem's aloof and controversial personality.

I think he's referring to the entire playoffs because he averaged about 37 ppg in the 7 game series vs the Warriors so 35 ppg in a 4 game series vs Portland would give him quite a bit more than the 34.6 ppg he averaged for the playoffs.