Kareem vs. Walton (1977 WCF)

[Roundball_Rock]

There is a common perception on this board that "Walton outplayed Kareem." Is this true?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCTQz...eature=related

Edit: the whole game is available. Search "1977 NBA WCF G4 Lakers@Blazers" on YT and all the videos will come up. There are 12 parts.

Game 4 is the only game I could find online from that series. How exactly was Kareem outplayed by Walton again? This was the 70's so they didn't update stats as much as today's television networks do but Kareem had something like 28 points to Walton's 19. They didn't mention rebounding but it easily appeared that Kareem outrebounded Walton as well. The only thing Walton did better than Kareem was passing. When Kareem went out the game with 5 fouls the Lakers were ahead by 4. That turned into a 6 point deficit in about three or four minutes before Kareem came back into the game and KAJ performed admirably despite playing with the handicap of five fouls. He had two or three blocks in the fourth quarter and contained Walton.

For the series Kareem averaged 35/17 despite constant double teams and even some triple teams. His team was vastly inferior to the point that even Musberger said they were "much less talented." How often do you hear an announcer make a comment like that? They try to be objective and "nice" so you can figure out how extreme the disparity was if it caused Musberger to say that they were not just less talented but much less talented. The Lakers had a better record but lost two starters due to injuries by the WCF. One was power forward Kermit Washington and the rest of the Lakers rebounded very poorly. After Kareem and Kermit the best rebounder LA had was a 4 boards per game guy. In contrast, Portland had a 20-11 all-star PF (in case you were wondering, Kareem was the only all-star on the Lakers). When the Lakers were healthy they did well against Portland. In the regular season they beat Portland 3-1, although to be fair Walton was hurt for two of those games and the Blazers lost both of them. Despite injuries, the games in the WCF were close. Three of the four games were decided by 6 points are less.

What about Walton? I don't know his WCF stats because we don't have game logs for back then and for some mysterious reason no one who says Walton>Kareem in the WCF ever posts his numbers...What we know is Walton averaged 18/15/5.5 in the playoffs. Kareem averaged 35/18/4 in the playoffs. Walton had the superior team by the WCF due to LA's injuries yet three of the four games were close. So how exactly did Walton outplay Kareem? Kareem did more with less. This smacks of the Wilt vs. Russell debate where one guy outplayed the other by a large margin but the lesser player had a superior "supporting cast" and that offset the dominance of the greater player.

Here is what one person who watched the entire series said. He was an ex-Blazer and was working as a Blazers commentator during the series. If he had any bias it would be in favor of Walton.

Snapper Jones on Kareem vs. Walton: "What battles? Bill lost them all. Bill Walton got his fanny kicked by Abdul-Jabbar. Kareem had no team around him. Portland killed the Lakers in the backcourt. But Abdul-Jabbar was still Abdul-Jabbar. He was great."

[Alhazred]

Kareem outplayed Walton. That said, Walton was excellent that year. I think he averaged 18/14/5, right?

[Leviathon1121]

I was under the assumption, based an very numerous posts in other threads that GOAT candidate players did not get passes for losing despite a gap in team talent levels.

[Alhazred]

I was under the assumption, based an very numerous posts in other threads that GOAT candidate players did not get passes for losing despite a gap in team talent levels.

Shhh.

[Roundball_Rock]

@ Jordan fans bringing their BS into this thread. This is a thread for basketball fans interested in the history of the sport prior to 1985. The issue is the individual battle between Kareem and Walton, not the outcome of the series although I have seen several people cite Portland winning to claim that Walton outplayed Kareem so that is why I mentioned it. One can outplay his counterpart thoroughly and lose.

There are a lot of people here who think Walton outplayed Kareem. Do any of them have a response to the OP? Maybe he did but can we hear the case? In particular, what was his production and how did it compare to Kareem's?

[Jinxed]

Do you know the "SECRET" of basketball? Have you read Simmon's the book of basketball?

You do not judge a player by points, rebounds and assists. These only account for at most 20% of what happens on the court. So perhaps Kareem did out rebound and outscore Walton. That's 15% of the game. There's still 85% unaccounted for..


Stuff like outlet passes, setting screens, floor spacing, help defense. Knowing that you have One of the GOAT's guarding you so you take less shots and act as a decoy to exploit the better matchups you have against the opposing team. These are things Walton did better than Kareem.

For example, there were many times during HS where I was the best player on the floor, however the other team's best player was guarding me, and I was only slightly better than him. However, the second best player on my team was WAY better than their second best player. So I would just act as a decoy and let my man work over his opponent. My stats would suffer but my team would win. Walton did stuff like this.

I'm not saying he outplayed him, I don't know. i haven't seen the whole series. I'm watching part of the game right now and I am just amazed by both players.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yes, I read it.

I'm not saying he outplayed him, I don't know. i haven't seen the whole series. I'm watching part of the game right now and I am just amazed by both players.

That is why I posted the link to the video so people could watch them in action and judge for themselves. I know what you are saying but Kareem helped his team in intangible ways as well. I do agree, though, that Walton's value went beyond stats. In addition to his passing and defense he was a great team leader.

[magnax1]

Wow, thanks for posting this. I haven't seen much of Prime WAlton, probably because there isn't much of it out there.

[Roundball_Rock]

Wow, thanks for posting this. I haven't seen much of Prime WAlton, probably because there isn't much of it out there.

No problem. Yeah, sadly there is not much out there for games before 1980. I like this game because you can see both prime Kareem and prime Walton.

[magnax1]

No problem. Yeah, sadly there is not much out there for games before 1980. I like this game because you can see both prime Kareem and prime Walton.

Agreed. There are just some guys that you can't find many games of from back then.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah and it is sad because it leads to older players being underrated. The 1977 WCSF is online too. You can see prime Rick Barry in that one. Kareem eliminated Barry and then Barry moved to the broadcasting table for the WCF.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Is this game available in it's entirety?

[Roundball_Rock]

Yes! Damn, I did not notice it was hard to find the second part. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. Scroll to "related videos" and it is the 15th one listed. You'll be better off just searching "1977 NBA WCF G4 Lakers@Blazers" on YT and all the parts will come up. There are 12 parts. It would be great to see your take on this after you watch it.

[ILLsmak]

Bill Walton is hilarious because when he commentates on a game he speaks as if he is the GOAT and he never made a mistake. If he hadn't got that ring w/ Portland he might have never done anything in the NBA.

-Smak

[Fatal9]

It's funny to see how little posters who were arguing Walton > Kareem actually knew about the series. Look at this thread: http://207.58.151.151/forum/showthre...=154369&page=3.

People forget despite the heads up matchup (where Kareem outplayed Walton, there is no questioning it), both Washington and Allen were injured. Washington didn't even play in the playoffs while Allen missed many games and was playing on an injured foot. The series was won at the guard positions where Portland destroyed LA's slower, turnover prone guards. I put up video of Kareem's 40 pt game against him, and there was a sequence where LA's guard couldn't even bring up the ball past half court (got it stolen by the the quicker Portland guards 3 straight times in a row...it was comical). He was playing with basically no forward around him, just guards because of how banged up LA was. Here's Kareem explaining it:

In '77 we had the best team in the league, but we lost Kermit Washington and Lucius Allen just before the playoffs, and Portland beat us four straight.

"We were playing, more or less, with four guards and me. Don Ford was out-rebounded by Maurice Lucas something like 45-12. Yet everything written said that Walton had outplayed me. Walton played a great series. I played a great series. The Trail Blazers played a great series. The Lakers played a poor one. The press tried to make it seem like I was embarrassed. Walton made one dunk shot on me, and that was supposed to have signaled the end of Abdul-Jabbar being the best."

The press has apparently changed its mind—Abdul-Jabbar is the best again—because so many things have happened to make the Lakers fun once more. "I view that with total cynicism," Abdul-Jabbar says of the press turnaround.