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Old 02-23-2010, 07:55 PM   #106
ThaRegul8r
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by pierce2008mvp
Kareem wasn't even the best player on his teams, Magic was. In fact Magic has 3 finals mvp's while Kareem got 1 together. That is like Duncan and Parker ratio.

Kareem was robbed in 1980. Magic had a legendary Game 6, but it was unquestionably Kareem who put them up 3-2 with two games left in the first place.
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Old 02-23-2010, 07:59 PM   #107
pierce2008mvp
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock

Yeah, and Jordan had nearly twice as many losing seasons as Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Magic, and Duncan combined (5 vs. 3). What is your point?

Not really, everyone of them went to winning teams. Also Kareem and Wilt both were under .500 at there peak. Also why would the NBA mention Wilt when the guy is dead now.

Also none of them have won 67+ games in 3 seasons like MJ. Also MJ was the only one of them to ever win multiple titles with no allstar on his team. He did this in 1991 and 1998.

Russell and MJ to me are pretty much tied for GOAT.
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Old 02-23-2010, 08:06 PM   #108
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Not really, everyone of them went to winning teams. Also Kareem and Wilt both were under .500 at there peak. Also why would the NBA mention Wilt when the guy is dead now.

Really? Kareem joined a 27 win expansion team. Wilt joined a 32 win team. Bird joined a 29 win team. Russell did join a 39-33 team but he improved them dramatically, from first round losers to champions. Jordan joined a 27 win team so the team he started with was comparable to Kareem, Wilt, and Bird's. All of them improved their weak teams to the ECF; Jordan improved his team from 27 wins to 38 wins and losing in the first round. Which one is not like the others? The "clear GOAT"?

Quote:
Also Kareem and Wilt both were under .500 at there peak

Yeah, Kareem went 40-42 once in 20 years and 38-44 another time (his team went 3-14 without him, not 55-27). Not bad.

Jordan has points in his favor but if you are going to use something arbitrary like losing to a below .500 team it has to be pointed out that similar flaws exist in Jordan's record.

Quote:
Also MJ was the only one of them to ever win multiple titles with no allstar on his team. He did this in 1991 and 1998.

In effect you want us to credit Jordan for Pippen injuring his foot and missing the all-star team because he played in only a handful of games before the all-star break. You see, that makes Jordan a better player than Kareem or Wilt! Jordan works in mysterious ways--another reason he is the GOAT!

Last edited by Roundball_Rock : 02-23-2010 at 08:12 PM.
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Old 02-23-2010, 08:10 PM   #109
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by pierce2008mvp
Let's not forget that both Kareem and Wilt lost to team below .500 in the playoffs as well and this with other top 10 players all time on there teams.
Let's also not forget it was a 3 game series with a team that peaked in the playoffs and made the finals (and Kareem was 34 years old by then). Magic was Tragic in that series, he missed FTs in the last minute of the do or die game when it was tied and airballed the 10 foot shot that would have won the series. Of course, this is just another example of Jordan ******ger trying to do his best to search through basketballreference.com and come up with any technicality possible, while ignoring context and being completely clueless about what actually took place in the series (Kareem was 34 and still averaged 27/17/4/3 in the series). I'm assuming this is the same duncanmvp troll who keeps getting banned so you'll be going on my ignore list.
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Old 02-23-2010, 08:12 PM   #110
pierce2008mvp
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
Really? Kareem joined a 27 win expansion team. Wilt joined a 32 win team. Bird joined a 29 win team. Russell did join a 39-33 team but he improved them dramatically, from first round losers to champions. Jordan joined a 27 win team so the team he started with was comparable to Kareem, Wilt, and Bird's. All of them improved their weak teams to the ECF; Jordan improved his team from 27 wins to 38 wins and losing in the first round. Which one is not like the others? The "clear GOAT"?



Yeah, Kareem went 40-42 once in 20 years and 38-44 another time (his team went 3-14 without him, not 55-27). Not bad.

Jordan has points in his favor but if you are going to use something as arbitrary like losing to a below .500 team it has to be pointed out that similar flaws exist in Jordan's record.



This is how low Jordan fans have to sink for the "clear GOAT." In effect they want us to credit Jordan for Pippen injuring his foot and missing the all-star team because he played in only a handful of games before the all-star break. You see, that makes Jordan a better player than Kareem or Wilt! Jordan works in mysterious ways--another reason he is the GOAT!

Wait, I never said anything about him being the clear GOAT or anything. I said I have him and Russell as the GOAT. One thing I do believe is that he may have the best case for being the GOAT only because he does have a lot of everything. Well rounded player that did win a lot, does have the accolades, does have the stats, etc.

Not every GOAT candidate has each of those.

Also another reason I put MJ over Kareem is the fact right now he has the most total win shares in playoff history and this despite playing 50 less games than Kareem.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._career_p.html

1. Michael Jordan* 39.76
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 35.56
3. Magic Johnson* 32.63
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.46
5. Shaquille O'Neal 30.66
6. Tim Duncan 27.90
7. Bill Russell* 27.76


Now if we add in college and high school then you can say Kareem is the ultimate GOAT, but since we are talking the NBA then it is different. To me it is like comparing a student from grammer school to high school to college. Each level is different and really doesn't carry over. It's like starting fresh each time.

Right now at basektball reference this is the order they have for career.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ob_career.html

1. Michael Jordan* 1.0000
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1.0000
3. Bill Russell* 1.0000
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 1.0000
5. Larry Bird* 1.0000
6. Magic Johnson* 1.0000
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Old 02-23-2010, 08:13 PM   #111
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
Really? Kareem joined a 27 win expansion team. Wilt joined a 32 win team. Bird joined a 29 win team. Russell did join a 39-33 team but he improved them dramatically, from first round losers to champions. Jordan joined a 27 win team so the team he started with was comparable to Kareem, Wilt, and Bird's. All of them improved their weak teams to the ECF; Jordan improved his team from 27 wins to 38 wins and losing in the first round. Which one is not like the others? The "clear GOAT"?



Yeah, Kareem went 40-42 once in 20 years and 38-44 another time (his team went 3-14 without him, not 55-27). Not bad.

Jordan has points in his favor but if you are going to use something arbitrary like losing to a below .500 team it has to be pointed out that similar flaws exist in Jordan's record.



In effect you want us to credit Jordan for Pippen injuring his foot and missing the all-star team because he played in only a handful of games before the all-star break. You see, that makes Jordan a better player than Kareem or Wilt! Jordan works in mysterious ways--another reason he is the GOAT!

Wilt and Kareem both had players better than them on a handful of finals appearances and titles. That is what hurts them.
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Old 02-23-2010, 08:20 PM   #112
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Fatal, pierce2008mvp=duncan21mvp aka JordansBulls on RealGM.

Quote:
One thing I do believe is that he may have the best case for being the GOAT only because he does have a lot of everything. Well rounded player that did win a lot, does have the accolades, does have the stats, etc.
Not every GOAT candidate has each of those.

Yeah--but Kareem has all of that too.

6 rings=6 rings
6 MVP's>5 MVP's
10 NBA finals>6 NBA finals
14 conference finals>8 conference finals

The only edge Jordan has is regarding scoring titles but that is because he shot more than anyone else in the history of basketball. Imagine if Kareem decided to lead the league in FGA every year! Kareem also led the league in rebounding, blocks, and FG %; the only category Jordan led other than scoring was steals.


Win shares? You used to be a Bulls fan, no? According to wins shares Rose=Taj Gibson.

Quote:
Right now at basektball reference this is the order they have for career.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ob_career.html

1. Michael Jordan* 1.0000
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1.0000
3. Bill Russell* 1.0000
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 1.0000
5. Larry Bird* 1.0000
6. Magic Johnson* 1.0000

1.0000=1.0000 the last time I checked. Let me guess: Jordan's score is 1.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000002 to Kareem's 1.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001?

Quote:
Wilt and Kareem both had players better than them on a handful of finals appearances and titles.

Says who? You can look at that way but you can also look at it this way:

Kareem without Magic: NBA champion and made another NBA finals (lost in Game 7)
Wilt without West: NBA champion
Jordan without Pippen: We all know the story here

In fact, Jordan is the only top 10 of all-time player to not at least make the conference finals without his best teammate. Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, and Kobe all won championships without their best teammate. Magic made the NBA finals and Bird made the ECF as a rookie inheriting a 29 win team without McHale.


Kareem>Jordan


Quote:
Call it blasphemy if you wish, but I don't think that Michael Jordan is the greatest player in NBA history. Let me just clear up some things.

1. I'm not a Jordan hater.

2. I'm completely aware of Jordan's contributions.

3. I'm also aware of the achievements of other legends and a closer look shows that Jordan is not undoubtedly the greatest of all time.

In fact, there are five players that I think are in the argument for GOAT. There's only one player I'd put over him though.

This player doesn't have Wilt's numbers, Russell's rings, or Magic's popularity, but when it comes down to it, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is the greatest player in NBA history.

When you compare Kareem and Jordan at face value, it's easy to think that Jordan is better. While I disagree, Jordan couldn't be a closer second. For a while, I thought that Jordan was the greatest, but here's why Kareem is the GOAT.



The Numbers

When you're only looking at basic stats, Kareem probably isn't in the top five. But one reason why people have forgotten Kareem's greatness is his longevity.

Mainly because of his debt (and I'm sure a love of the game had to do with it as well), Kareem played until he was 41, when he was way passed his days of being an elite player.

Kareem played 1560 games. Jordan played 1072 games. When you look at Kareem's numbers through that same number of games (okay, so through 1090 games, but I had to round it off at the end of a season), the numbers are comparable.



Points per game

Kareem sits at 24.6 points per game, 11th all-time. Through 1090 games, Kareem averages 27.3 points per game, fifth all-time behind Jordan, Chamberlain, LeBron James, and Elgin Baylor.

Chamberlain (who played 1045 games) averages 2.8 more points per game than Kareem, but Kareem played in slower offenses.



Rebounds per game

Currently 24th at 11.1. In 1090 games, he's 10th at 13.2. He's third behind only Wes Unseld and Dave Cowens in terms of post-60's players.



Assists per game

4.6 per game in 1090. This is first among all centers. Bill Walton, considered by most to be the greatest passing big man ever, had one season where he averaged more.



Defense

Of course, it's not all about numbers when it comes to greatness. But there is evidence that Kareem is at least in the top five when it comes to defense.

Back to 1090 games defense, Kareem averaged 3.7 blocks per game, first all-time. Of course, there's most likely still players above him. Bill Russell most likely holds the record, but blocks weren't a stat when he played.

Kareem also averaged more fouls than blocks in that time. Mark Eaton, Hakeem Olajuwon, Alonzo Mourning, Ben Wallace, Marcus Camby, and Dwight Howard this year, all Defensive Player of the Year winners, can't claim the same numbers.

In fact, these are the kind of defensive numbers Dikembe Mutombo averaged when he won three DPOY's in four years.

Kareem led the NBA in blocks four times. In three of those years, he averaged more blocks than fouls, with a ratio of 1.27, far more than anyone else at the time. The DPOY wasn't around at the time, but Kareem should have won it.

In the first year, Kareem led the NBA in rebounds and blocks. In the second year, he led the NBA in rebounds per game and blocks per game. In the third year, Kareem was deservedly voted to the all-defensive first team over the defensively overrated, foul-prone Dave Cowens.

If he had good relationships with the media and had DPOY been around at the time, Kareem probably would have won it those three times.



Winning Ability

In the 69-70 season, Knicks center Willis Reed had one of the most accomplished seasons any player has ever had. He was all-NBA, all-defensive, an NBA champion, finals MVP, and the NBA's MVP.

Even in his rookie year, Kareem deserved that MVP. The Bucks, coming off a 27 win season, acquired Kareem and Bob Dandridge, and the two led the Bucks to 56 wins, only four games behind the Knicks where Reed was surrounded by great players like Walt Frazier, Dave DeBusschere, Bill Bradley, and Cazzie Russell.

Kareem deservedly won MVP in his second year with one of the greatest seasons anyone has ever had. He led the NBA in scoring, averaged 16 rebounds per game, and won finals MVP. The Bucks won 66 games, most in the NBA.

In his remaining four seasons with the Bucks, they won less than 59 games once. The Bucks were 34-31 with Kareem and 4-13 without him.

Kareem would have been able to take just about any group of players and make them into an elite team. Flynn Robinson became an elite point guard worthy of a trade for Oscar Robertson, but scored seven less per game in Cincinnati.

He opened up the lanes for John McGlocklin better than anyone could have. Oscar Robertson rejuvenated his career with the Bucks.

In his Laker days, Kareem was an NBA finalist eight times and he's a six-time NBA champion.

As possibly the greatest passing big man and helping defender ever, Kareem inspired his team win more than anyone, despite what his relationships with the media would lead one to think.

I know what you're thinking; Jordan has six championships. Yes he does. And it also wouldn't be fair for me to say that Kareem won six as well after highlighting the years where he only won three. However, during most of those years, Kareem didn't have an elite sidekick like Jordan.

With the Bucks, Robertson was an elite talent for only his first two years. With Robertson, the Bucks won the NBA championship and lost the finals to the Lakers, who won 69 games. Magic Johnson and Kareem were united for four of the seasons I mentioned earlier and made the finals twice and lost the finals another time.

Jordan didn't win a championship in his first six years because of a poor supporting cast. The Bulls finished under .500 in his first three years and didn't contend until Scottie Pippen became an elite talent in Jordan's sixth season.



Pippen is Underrated

Jordan is 1-9 without him in the postseason. To say that Pippen doesn't compare to Jordan is absurd. In the Bulls games I've watched, Pippen is often the one rotating quickly on defense, helping out everyone. Not to say Jordan wasn't a great defender, Pippen was just better in that aspect.

In the two years played mainly without Jordan, the Bulls were still a very good team under Pippen's leadership. In 1994, the Bulls won 55 games and lost to the NBA finalist Knicks in seven games in the second round. The Bulls won 47 games the second year, losing to the Magic, also NBA finalists, in six games in the second round.



Kareem Also Played in a Tougher NBA

The 70's are often a forgotten era in NBA history for two reasons; the lack of star power and because the NBA doesn't like talking about the league's drug problems.

But the 70's were an era with half as many teams as the 90's and greater talent concentration. In that decade, the fifth best team in the league would only win around 45 games. It would sometimes be a team like the Knicks or the Warriors with Rick Barry and Nate Thurmond. The 80's were the toughest era in NBA history.

Who's better? The 80's Lakers, the 80's Celtics, the 90's Bulls? Perhaps a 76er's team led by Moses Malone and Julius Erving?

If Jordan's Bulls played in the 80's, they wouldn't have won six championships. It's possible that Jordan was a greater winner than Kareem and a player's winning ability is all that really matters when it comes down to it.

But a closer look at history shows that the players are neck-and-neck. Perhaps if Kareem had a Pippen-like talent in the first half of his career, the Bucks would be up there with the Bulls.



Conclusion

As I said before, Jordan was an amazing player. He couldn't be any closer to the greatest ever. He's not overrated. Others are just underrated.

Kareem, along with his great individual accomplishments, was a winner. He took the Bucks, a 27 win team, and made them into NBA champions in two years.

With a supporting cast lacking superstars, Kareem led the Bucks to 60 win seasons. In his second season with the Lakers, without Johnson and after losing Gail Goodrich, Kareem led the Lakers to 53 wins. With Magic, the Lakers dominated the most difficult era in NBA history.

Kareem, a six-time MVP, a six-time NBA champion, the all-time leader in points, a 19-time all-star, and possibly the greatest passing big man and one of the greatest interior defenders of all-time, is the greatest player in NBA history.

Jordan has six rings and he's the all-time leading scorer, but a closer look shows that he's not the undeniable GOAT.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...in-nba-history

There are a lot of legitimate points here.

Last edited by Roundball_Rock : 02-23-2010 at 08:31 PM.
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Old 02-23-2010, 08:30 PM   #113
pierce2008mvp
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock

Yeah--but Kareem has all of that too.

6 rings=6 rings
6 MVP's>5 MVP's
10 NBA finals>6 NBA finals
14 conference finals>8 conference finals

The only edge Jordan has is regarding scoring titles but that is because he shot more than anyone else in the history of basketball. Imagine if Kareem decided to lead the league in FGA every year! Kareem also led the league in rebounding, blocks, and FG %; the only category Jordan led other than scoring was steals.

Kareem without Magic: NBA champion and made another NBA finals (lost in Game 7)
Wilt without West: NBA champion
Jordan without Pippen: We all know the story here


Jordan won all his rings as the best player in the league. Kareem in 1987 and 1988 wasn't even a top 10 player in the league. In 1988 he was like the 3rd best player on the team.

So saying 6 titles = 6 is false. Unless you believe that Pippen's 6 rings are greater than Bird's 3 rings as well.

1. Michael Jordan* 8.138
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 6.203
3. Larry Bird* 5.693
4. Magic Johnson* 5.129
5. Bill Russell* 4.827
6. Shaquille O'Neal 4.380

Yeah and Kareem won league mvp on a team that didn't even make the playoffs and that was below .500. If that is the case, might as well give Jordan MVP in 1987 then.

Anyway, Jordan has more MVP total shares as well.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...es_career.html


And please don't try to use a freaking Taj Gibson and Rose example. We are talking about 5 of the top 10 best guys ever here.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._career_p.html

1. Michael Jordan* 39.76
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 35.56
3. Magic Johnson* 32.63
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.46
5. Shaquille O'Neal 30.66
6. Tim Duncan 27.90
7. Bill Russell* 27.76
8. Julius Erving* 26.89
9. Jerry West* 26.75
10. Larry Bird* 24.83

You see role players in the top 10 for playoff Win Shares?

And Kareem nor Wilt ever won a title without having another guy who made the allstar team on their team. In fact both Kareem and Wilt had guys on their teams who won Finals MVP's and even league mvp.

Imagine if Jordan ever played with a player better than him on his teams that was top 3-4 in the league?
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Old 02-23-2010, 08:37 PM   #114
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Why do Jordan fans of all people insist on diminishing every other legend based on their teammates? The hilarious thing is doing this asks for the same question to be asked regarding Jordan--and his record in that regard is hands down the worst among the top 10 of all-time.

Quote:
Jordan won all his rings as the best player in the league.

Shaq was better in 98'. Does this make Jordan's ring less valuable?

Quote:
Yeah and Kareem won league mvp on a team that didn't even make the playoffs and that was below .500. If that is the case, might as well give Jordan MVP in 1987 then.

Or 88' on a 50 win team? How many people won MVP's with less than 55 wins?

Win shares:

Win Shares

1. LeBron James-CLE 14.3
2. Kevin Durant-OKC 10.0
3. Dwight Howard-ORL 9.3
4. Gerald Wallace-CHA 8.7
5. Dwyane Wade-MIA 8.6
6. Chris Bosh-TOR 8.4
7. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 8.0
8. Tim Duncan-SAS 8.0
9. Chris Paul-NOH 7.6
10. Kobe Bryant-LAL 7.4
11. Rajon Rondo-BOS 7.4
12. David Lee-NYK 7.2

13. Steve Nash-PHO 7.1
14. Nene Hilario-DEN 7.1
15. Al Horford-ATL 7.1
16. Marc Gasol-MEM 7.1

17. Chauncey Billups-DEN 7.0
18. Josh Smith-ATL 6.8
19. Andrew Bynum-LAL 6.7
20. Pau Gasol-LAL 6.6



Fair point that Jordan never had a teammate better than him--although neither did prime Kareem or prime Wilt. On the other hand, Kareem and Wilt played against tougher competition. Imagine if you put prime Kareem in an era where his biggest competition is the Ewing/Starks Knicks and you give him a team strong enough to win 55 games even without him. How dominant would that team be?
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Old 02-23-2010, 08:41 PM   #115
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by KAJ=GOAT
What I'm getting at is this,

you never hear people talk much about his collegiate career because outside of that game winning shot, it wasn't as spectacular as say, leading your team to an 88-2 record with three straight championships.

No, it wasn't, but winning NCAA Player of the Year and being selected to represent your country at the Olympics is by no means an ordinary collegiate career, either. When has the media ever downplayed his college years? I remember watching UNC games with him on ESPN Classic back in the 90s. Maybe that's not the best example, but I wouldn't say it's largely ignored.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
The typical practice is to talk about the actual record. Remember how big a story chasing the home run record was in baseball in the 90's? How come no one ever said "Player X had the most home runs since ____ "? It was all about 61, the all-time record.

That's not quite true. You do know that Roger Maris' record had an asterisk because it was done in 162 games, not 154, right?

Quote:
In 1961 Baseball Commissioner Ford Frick attached an asterisk to Roger Maris' home run record because Babe Ruth needed just 154 games games to hit 60 home runs, and Maris took 162 to break Ruth's record.

http://www.masslive.com/mywideworld/..._asterisk.html

Of course, there's also the talk of placing an asterisk on McGwire's and Sosa's records now.

Quote:
Really? Kareem joined a 27 win expansion team. Wilt joined a 32 win team. Bird joined a 29 win team. Russell did join a 39-33 team but he improved them dramatically, from first round losers to champions. Jordan joined a 27 win team so the team he started with was comparable to Kareem, Wilt, and Bird's. All of them improved their weak teams to the ECF; Jordan improved his team from 27 wins to 38 wins and losing in the first round. Which one is not like the others? The "clear GOAT"?

Just curious, but how many HOFers did Michael have from 1985-87 compared to those guys(Kareem being an exception)? How about mentioning that he took a 19 win Wizards team in his late thirties and led them to a .500 record going 30-30 while they were 7-15 without him?
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Old 02-23-2010, 08:45 PM   #116
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
Why do Jordan fans of all people insist on diminishing every other legend based on their teammates? The hilarious thing is doing this asks for the same question to be asked regarding Jordan--and his record in that regard is hands down the worst among the top 10 of all-time.



Shaq was better in 98'. Does this make Jordan's ring less valuable?


Disagree. You win league and finals mvp, I consider you the best in the league.

Quote:
Or 88' on a 50 win team? How many people won MVP's with less than 55 wins?

Maybe because he led the league in PER, Win shares, Scoring, Steals, etc.

Oh and Moses Malone won MVP with less than 50 wins. Also 50 wins at the time was a top 3 seed.



Quote:
Win Shares

1. LeBron James-CLE 14.3
2. Kevin Durant-OKC 10.0
3. Dwight Howard-ORL 9.3
4. Gerald Wallace-CHA 8.7
5. Dwyane Wade-MIA 8.6
6. Chris Bosh-TOR 8.4
7. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 8.0
8. Tim Duncan-SAS 8.0
9. Chris Paul-NOH 7.6
10. Kobe Bryant-LAL 7.4
11. Rajon Rondo-BOS 7.4
12. David Lee-NYK 7.2

13. Steve Nash-PHO 7.1
14. Nene Hilario-DEN 7.1
15. Al Horford-ATL 7.1
16. Marc Gasol-MEM 7.1

17. Chauncey Billups-DEN 7.0
18. Josh Smith-ATL 6.8
19. Andrew Bynum-LAL 6.7
20. Pau Gasol-LAL 6.6

Those guys have produced the most for there teams.


Quote:
Fair point that Jordan never had a teammate better than him--although neither did prime Kareem or prime Wilt. On the other hand, Kareem and Wilt played against tougher competition. Imagine if you put prime Kareem in an era where his biggest competition is the Ewing/Starks Knicks and you give him a team strong enough to win 55 games even without him. How dominant would that team be?

I agree, however Kareem won 5 of his titles when it could be argued that his teammate was better. In 1980 I'll give you Kareem was better, but in 1982 it was an even pick and after that Magic was better.

Wilt won in 1967 as the best player and in 1968 he was the best player but from 1969 till he retired, West was the best player and that is when Wilt won again.



It's not a simple he won 6 titles with Kareem. It would be like someone using that Jordan won 6 titles, but he won 3 titles from 1991-1993 and then played with Shaq from 2000-2002 and won 3 more and then people saying he was the GOAT. Which would be false as he wouldn't had been the best player on the team those years.

That's my point with Kareem's titles. He won at least 2 as the undisputed best player but then you have 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988 where he wasn't. Even if you wanted to say he was the best on the team in 1982 you can, but the other 3 he wasn't.

Last edited by pierce2008mvp : 02-23-2010 at 08:53 PM.
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Old 02-23-2010, 08:59 PM   #117
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

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Oh and Moses Malone won MVP with less than 50 wins. Also 50 wins at the time was a top 3 seed.


moses won his MVP back when the players decided who won it... mid 80's sometime the voting was handed over to the media..once the media got the vote total wins became part of the criteria or so it seem.

so kareems mvps are peer votes, jordans are media votes... not saying one is more valuble then the other, just different, although personally as a player it has to feel pretty good for the guys you compete against nightly to choose you as the best that year
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Old 02-23-2010, 08:59 PM   #118
32jazz
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

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Originally Posted by pierce2008mvp
Disagree. You win league and finals mvp, I consider you the best in the league.



Wilt won in 1967 as the best player and in 1968 he was the best player but from 1969 till he retired, West was the best player and that is when Wilt won again.

Are you trying to suggest that 'Mr Choke'/West( who is still embarrased about his '72 Finals play & hates talking about that series along with Walt Fraziers destruction of him in '70?) carried Wilt to a ring in '72 when he won the Finals MVP on a shredded knee & broken hand?

West & Baylor(arguably a better player) had lost at least 6 or 7 NBA finals before Wilt came along(West was a total 1-9 in the Finals). And people call Wilt a 'loser' since he 'only' won 2 Rings & was the MVP of both teams.

If any player of that era should be called a 'loser' it's definitely West/Baylor.
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Old 02-23-2010, 09:07 PM   #119
Roundball_Rock
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

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That's not quite true. You do know that Roger Maris' record had an asterisk because it was done in 162 games, not 154, right?

Yes, but that has nothing to do with my point. No one said "Barry Bonds hit the most home runs in 30 years" or "Ken Griffefy Jr. hit the most home runs since Willie Mays." The talk always was about chasing 61. USA Today even had a "chasing 61"(or at least a "chasing the record" and the record was listed as 61) section in the sports page every day.

Do you follow any other sports? In football whenever I see records talked about it is the legit record. 48 TD's, whatever the rushing TD mark happened to be at a given time (Emmit, LJ and then LT broke it within about a decade remember), with Moss it was the receiving TD mark, and so on. In NASCAR Jeff Gordon tied the modern era record with 13 wins in 1998. The next highest total was 12. I never heard the media say "Gordon has the most wins since ____" when he got to 12. It was always about 13.

How about Kobe? Why do you think the media has selected 6 and 7 rings as magic numbers for him? Why not 4, 5, or 8?


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Just curious, but how many HOFers did Michael have from 1985-87 compared to those guys(Kareem being an exception)? How about mentioning that he took a 19 win Wizards team in his late thirties and led them to a .500 record going 30-30 while they were 7-15 without him?

0 and all those points are legitimate. The only curious thing is many top 40 of all-time players did not have HOFers for years and managed to get above .500 time and again.

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Disagree. You win league and finals mvp, I consider you the best in the league.

Shaq could not win FMVP since his team did not make the finals but I see your point and Jordan was considered the best player by 90% of people at the time. My point was being the best player in the league has no relevance to the value of a ring.

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Oh and Moses Malone won MVP with less than 50 wins. Also 50 wins at the time was a top 3 seed.

Yeah--that is the list: Moses, Jordan, Kareem, and Petit. That is it. Even Nash won 54 games in 06'.

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Those guys have produced the most for there teams.

Gerald Wallace is the fourth best player in the league? Nene>Carmelo and Billups?

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I agree, however Kareem won 5 of his titles when it could be argued that his teammate was better. In 1980 I'll give you Kareem was better, but in 1982 it was an even pick and after that Magic was better.

Perhaps, although most people would still go with Kareem in 1982. Why does this matter, though? If you are saying Kareem won because of Magic we need to look at Kareem's record without Magic. We also need to then look at Jordan's record without Pippen. Why do Jordan fans insist on leading down this very unfavorable road time and again?

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so kareems mvps are peer votes, jordans are media votes... not saying one is more valuble then the other, just different, although personally as a player it has to feel pretty good for the guys you compete against nightly to choose you as the best that year

Great points. Other than Jordan in 88' with 50 wins (and from what I have heard it would likely have been 49 but the Celtics rested their starters for the final game), the lowest win total of a MVP since the media began voting is I believe 54 and that was Nash in 06'.
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Old 02-23-2010, 09:51 PM   #120
Alhazred
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

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Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
Yes, but that has nothing to do with my point. No one said "Barry Bonds hit the most home runs in 30 years" or "Ken Griffefy Jr. hit the most home runs since Willie Mays." The talk always was about chasing 61. USA Today even had a "chasing 61"(or at least a "chasing the record" and the record was listed as 61) section in the sports page every day.

I heard people bring up Maris all of the time in 1998 when talking about the record being broken. They even made a movie about his own home run chase in 2001. Maybe you've seen it?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0250934/

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Do you follow any other sports? In football whenever I see records talked about it is the legit record. 48 TD's, whatever the rushing TD mark happened to be at a given time (Emmit, LJ and then LT broke it within about a decade remember), with Moss it was the receiving TD mark, and so on. In NASCAR Jeff Gordon tied the modern era record with 13 wins in 1998. The next highest total was 12. I never heard the media say "Gordon has the most wins since ____" when he got to 12. It was always about 13.

I'm not as knowledgeable about the status of NFL or Nascar records, so no comment.

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How about Kobe? Why do you think the media has selected 6 and 7 rings as magic numbers for him? Why not 4, 5, or 8?

Because 6 means they get to bring up more MJ vs. Kobe debates, of course.

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0 and all those points are legitimate. The only curious thing is many top 40 of all-time players did not have HOFers for years and managed to get above .500 time and again.

How many had teams legitimately as bad as the the 85-87 Bulls or 2002-03 Wizards, though?
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