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Old 02-25-2010, 05:46 PM   #301
Roundball_Rock
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
So what? That's like diminishing a player for winning a championship in 7 games with 3 losses than winning in 4.

The point was if you look at the entirety of their careers Kareem won more. I guess there is no difference in your eyes between losing in Game 7 of the NBA finals and getting swept in the first round?

Quote:
Hakeem was competition to Jordan in 93 and 96. Neither won in 93, but Hakeem did beat him in the MVP voting, and Jordan won over him in 96. It shows he was competition to Jordan

Hakeem was a distant 4th in 96'. Jordan's teammate almost beat Hakeem in 96'. That is competition?

Quote:
Without the existence of Jordan - 1988 MVP for Bird, 1991 MVP for Magic
Without the existence of Bird - 1985 MVP for Magic
Without the existence of Magic - 1987 MVP and 1991 MVP for Jordan.

How about we do the same for Wilt and Russell by excluding, say, Wilt and Oscar for Russell?

League size is a specious argument. An expanded league does not mean expanded MVP competition since an expanded league will not increase the number of MVP candidates for obvious reasons, unless you can name some MVP caliber players who were being cut from 60's and 70's rosters.

Quote:
Anyway, Oscar, West, Baylor, Barkley, Malone, and arguably Robinson are all in the #10-#20 range, so I don't see the big difference.

Sure there is a difference. Oscar and West are arguably top 10 all-time and all three are top 15 all-time on practically all lists. Barkley and Malone never crack the top 15 and Robinson usually is not even top 20. Your argument is there is no significant difference between the caliber of player who is in the top 10 conversation and top 20 conversation. Using that logic there is no difference between, say, Duncan and KG.

You can find it funny all you want. What I find hilarious is if Jordan's teams collapsed like Kareem's without him we would be hearing about how Jordan carried scrubs. Hell, his team won 55 games without him and we still hear how MJ won all by himself!

Quote:
When it comes to a GOAT level player you can't measure it by statistics or by championships. I know, then you say, HOW CAN YOU MEASURE IT?

Here is my criteria: put any great player on a team with 11 other guys randomly selected, give them 5 years to build around them. Whose team would do the best? The answer to that imo is Kareem.
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Old 02-25-2010, 05:49 PM   #302
juju151111
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuniva_dAMiGhTy
Sure:

* Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
* Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
* Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6 (min. 15 games)
* Highest single season playoff average: MJ 43.7
* Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
* Most Total Points Playoffs: MJ 5987
* Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
* Most seasons leading league in total points: MJ 11
* Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ, Wilt tied at 7
* Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
* Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 38
* Most 30 point games: MJ 563
* Most 30 point games playoffs: MJ 109
* Most consecutive 50 point games playoffs: MJ 2
* Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
* Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
* Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
* Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
* Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 35
* Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
* Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
* Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
* Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
* Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40




70 records and not even close to 6 rings or all around Mvps. Try again Kobe fan.
oh Look the Goat has the most ppg in the playoffs. I wonder why that is. LMAO at 70 records in a inflated stats era. GTFO. MJ would avg 10+ rebs andway more pts in the 50s and 60s.
Look at elgin baylor against nba finals defense http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur2qAApCtD4 LOL Mj 50 pts with those slow ass guads back then. They don't even contest the shots. The just swipe there hands. Elgin was moving in slow motion for and dribbling with one hand. they still couldn't guard him. You expect me to believe Mj wouldn't have way more scoring records if he played against those teams?? GTFO

Round you skip 63 and 66 when Guy Rodgers avg 10+ asts. Nobody was complaining about Magic and Stock once again. LOL GTFO with that 8 asts give u a ast title.

Mj team would be way better because of the less teams then. Why are you talking about the Bulls 90s roster?? In 60s it would look different with better players. Russell,MJ, and Wilt would of probably got around the same amount of MVPs in 50s,60s
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Old 02-25-2010, 05:55 PM   #303
ILLsmak
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
Here is my criteria: put any great player on a team with 11 other guys randomly selected, give them 5 years to build around them. Whose team would do the best? The answer to that imo is Kareem.

Or Shaq...

And by your criteria I can see why you don't believe MJ is the GOAT. -

-Smak
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Old 02-25-2010, 06:22 PM   #304
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
Hakeem was a distant 4th in 96'. Jordan's teammate almost beat Hakeem in 96'. That is competition?

Its competition from a top 10 player of all-time right? Did you even bother to look at the voting for Russell and Wilt? For 3 of Russell's 5 MVPs, Wilt was at least a distant 4th behind him, and for 1 of the remaining 2 Wilt wasn't even in the league yet. Wilt was 2nd to Russell once. For Wilt's 4 MVPs, Russell finished 2nd, 4th, 3rd, and then not even in the top 5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
How about we do the same for Wilt and Russell by excluding, say, Wilt and Oscar for Russell?

It has nothing to do with Wilt and Russell. You're trying to diminish the MVP competition Jordan faced from Bird and Magic, when he actually had equal or greater competition with them then they did with each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
League size is a specious argument. An expanded league does not mean expanded MVP competition since an expanded league will not increase the number of MVP candidates for obvious reasons, unless you can name some MVP caliber players who were being cut from 60's and 70's rosters.

Are you serious? More players means more great players, which means some of those great players will get less recognition then they would in a smaller league. You'd have a point if the talent pool was the exact same size, but it clearly isn't since basketball has gotten way more popular since the 60s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
Sure there is a difference. Oscar and West are arguably top 10 all-time and all three are top 15 all-time on practically all lists. Barkley and Malone never crack the top 15 and Robinson usually is not even top 20. Your argument is there is no significant difference between the caliber of player who is in the top 10 conversation and top 20 conversation. Using that logic there is no difference between, say, Duncan and KG.

I don't really care about other people's list. I don't see any argument for West and Oscar in the top 10. And I didn't get to see them play, so I'll admit I could be wrong, but if we go by accolades/championships/stats like 95% of the posters do around here, there is nothing that really separates West/Oscar/Baylor from Barkley/Malone/Robinson. And I didn't say there is not a significant difference between the top 10 and top 20, but the top 15 and top 20, which there isn't. And Robinson is underrated IMO, mainly cause so many people love to overrate the past. Its the same reason you still hear crap like Prime Hill and Pippen > current Lebron.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
You can find it funny all you want. What I find hilarious is if Jordan's teams collapsed like Kareem's without him we would be hearing about how Jordan carried scrubs. Hell, his team won 55 games without him and we still hear how MJ won all by himself!

Only a few idiots say Jordan carried scrubs and won by himself and then you feel the need to respond with some unnecessary biblical verse
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Old 02-25-2010, 06:35 PM   #305
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

[quote=plowking]LOL at Nascar. No one cares about that.

F1 is clearly Schumacher.QUOTE]

what an ignorant !!!
this dumb never heard of Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost

he only knows Schumacher and went ahead saying : CLEARLY
kids should listen and read and shut up
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Old 02-25-2010, 06:44 PM   #306
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by juju151111
oh Look the Goat has the most ppg in the playoffs. I wonder why that is. LMAO at 70 records in a inflated stats era. GTFO. MJ would avg 10+ rebs andway more pts in the 50s and 60s.
Look at elgin baylor against nba finals defense http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur2qAApCtD4 LOL Mj 50 pts with those slow ass guads back then. They don't even contest the shots. The just swipe there hands. Elgin was moving in slow motion for and dribbling with one hand. they still couldn't guard him. You expect me to believe Mj wouldn't have way more scoring records if he played against those teams?? GTFO

Round you skip 63 and 66 when Guy Rodgers avg 10+ asts. Nobody was complaining about Magic and Stock once again. LOL GTFO with that 8 asts give u a ast title.

Mj team would be way better because of the less teams then. Why are you talking about the Bulls 90s roster?? In 60s it would look different with better players. Russell,MJ, and Wilt would of probably got around the same amount of MVPs in 50s,60s

All those guys Elgin Baylor played against in the Finals are better then Dan Marlje, slow azz Bryon Russell (pushed off and traveled), 6'2 Terry Porter,Hersey Hawkins/6'1 Gary Peyton and washed up Magic Johnson hurt fighting HIV.
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Old 02-25-2010, 06:48 PM   #307
juju151111
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desperado
All those guys Elgin Baylor played against in the Finals are better then Dan Marlje, slow azz Bryon Russell (pushed off and traveled), 6'2 Terry Porter,Hersey Hawkins/6'1 Gary Peyton and washed up Magic Johnson hurt fighting HIV.
LOL no they wasn't. Did you even watch the video. They movements were robotic and slow. they don't even contest. well i don't expect anything else from a nutgagger.
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Old 02-25-2010, 06:48 PM   #308
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by andgar923


U mad?






not really....
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Old 02-25-2010, 06:50 PM   #309
Desperado
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by juju151111
LOL no they wasn't. Did you even watch the video. They movements were robotic and slow. they don't even contest. well i don't expect anything else from a nutgagger.

smh I'm a 'nutgagger' but you and most of these other Jordan stans on this site would line up to give him head if he asked for it.
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Old 02-25-2010, 06:50 PM   #310
kuniva_dAMiGhTy
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desperado
All those guys Elgin Baylor played against in the Finals are better then Dan Marlje, slow azz Bryon Russell (pushed off and traveled), 6'2 Terry Porter,Hersey Hawkins/6'1 Gary Peyton and washed up Magic Johnson hurt fighting HIV.

Washed up Magic Johnson who still put up near 20 and 10 during the Finals. The talent from the perimeter during the 60's and early 70's was no where near the level it was throughout the 80's/90's circa.

Grant Hill - Height 6'8"
Sean Elliott - Height 6'8"
Robert Reid - Height 6'8"
Jerry Reynolds - Height 6'8"
Walt Williams - Height 6'8"
Malik Sealy - Height 6'8"
Shawn Marion - Height 6'7"
Bruce Bowen - Height 6'7"
Lionel Simmons - Height 6'7"
Calbert Cheaney - Height 6'7"
Penny Hardaway - Height 6'7"
Bryon Russell - Height 6'7"
Clyde Drexler - Height 6'7"
Reggie Miller - Height 6'7"
Purvis Short - Height 6'7"
Tony Campbell - Height 6'7"
Dale Ellis - Height 6'7"
Steve Smith - Height 6'7"
Reggie Theus - Height 6'7"
Glen Rice - Height 6'7"
Alex English - Height 6'7"
Reggie Williams - Height 6'7"
Dominique Wilkins - Height 6'7"
Nick Anderson - Height 6'6"
Gerald Wilkins - Height 6'6"
Rolando Blackman - Height 6'6"
Stacey Augmon - Height 6'6"
Doug Christie - Height 6'6"
Craig Ehlo - Height 6'6''
Ron Harper - Height 6'6"
Chris Mullin - Height 6'6"
Jim Jackson - Height 6'6"
Kobe Bryant - Height 6'6"
Ron Artest - Height 6'6"
Paul Pierce - Height 6'6"
Michael Ray Richardson - Height 6'5"
Mario Ellie - Height 6'5"
Mitch Richmond - Height 6'5"
Michael Cooper - Height 6'5"
Kendall Gill - Height 6'5"
Kerry Kittles - Height 6'5"
Raja Bell - Height 6'5"
Mike Woodson - Height 6'5"
Gary Payton - Height 6'4"
Lester Conner - Height 6'4"
Dennis Johnson - Height 6'4"
Jeff Malone - Height 6'4"
Joe Dumars - Height 6'3"
John Starks - Height 6'3"
Jeff Hornacek - Height 6'3"

Try again, Kobe fan.
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Old 02-25-2010, 06:56 PM   #311
ThaRegul8r
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
Quote:
Dean Oliver revealed in a statistical study six years ago that Russell's defensive impact = prime Jordan's offensive impact.

Russell's impact=if you take him off his team do they win 55 games without him?

*ducks for cover*

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Old 02-25-2010, 07:01 PM   #312
Desperado
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by juju151111
Russell didn't dominate the league. Wilt dominated the league. MJ offense>>>>Russell,dominance,clutch,mvps,finals mvps etc.... You can't just magically give people awards sorry. hey Desperado, it sure has hell ain't Kome.


11 championships in 13 years!

yup he didn't dominate the league.....


MJ was a ball hog he led the league in FGA a record 9 times!! Russell owns him in every category except for scoring
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Old 02-25-2010, 07:04 PM   #313
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desperado
11 championships in 13 years!

yup he didn't dominate the league.....


MJ was a ball hog he led the league in FGA a record 9 times!! Russell owns him in every category except for scoring
Word
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Old 02-25-2010, 07:05 PM   #314
Roundball_Rock
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
11 championships in 13 years!

yup he didn't dominate the league.....

It would have been 12 in 13 too if he didn't get hurt in 58', but his team went 1-3 without him after he went down. What happened in his other season? ECF. Wow. What a scrub! In his worst season all he did was make the ECF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zizozain
Quote:
Originally Posted by plowking
LOL at Nascar. No one cares about that.

F1 is clearly Schumacher.

what an ignorant !!!
this dumb never heard of Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost

he only knows Schumacher and went ahead saying : CLEARLY
kids should listen and read and shut up

That dude thinks Damon "the worst 'champion' ever" Hill, Rubens, and DC were legit competition for MS (I'll give him Hakkinen in 2000). He thinks MS is the CLEAR GOAT. Is it a surprise he has a similarly narrow view of basketball history and another Michael?

Note: I consider Schumacher the GOAT but Senna and Prost have strong cases as well. The big knock on MS is he won in a weak era, which is why if he wins this year.

Quote:
Its competition from a top 10 player of all-time right? Did you even bother to look at the voting for Russell and Wilt? For 3 of Russell's 5 MVPs, Wilt was at least a distant 4th behind him, and for 1 of the remaining 2 Wilt wasn't even in the league yet. Wilt was 2nd to Russell once. For Wilt's 4 MVPs, Russell finished 2nd, 4th, 3rd, and then not even in the top 5.

It is subjective. At some point, though, you have to draw the line.

No I did not look them up. Now what are the results if you remove their two chief competitors like you did with MJ and Magic/Bird (although Robinson actually was his top competitor over the 5 MVP's)?

Quote:
You're trying to diminish the MVP competition Jordan faced from Bird and Magic, when he actually had equal or greater competition with them then they did with each other.

Bird was no longer a MVP candidate by Jordan's second MVP and Magic was retired after 91'. How can you cite them as tough competition when most of MJ's MVP's came after they retired?

Quote:
Are you serious? More players means more great players, which means some of those great players will get less recognition then they would in a smaller league

So your argument is if the league is contracted to 10 teams Lebron will have a tougher time in winning a MVP? Let's get real: a player like Howard or Carmelo who is a borderline MVP candidate would get more recognition under that scenario but they would still not be legitimate threats to Lebron.

Quote:
And Robinson is underrated IMO, mainly cause so many people love to overrate the past.

I disagree. Look at his peers. He is behind Jordan, Shaq, and Hakeem and in a pack which is headed by Malone, Barkley and includes Pippen, Stockton in the 17-27 range and is well ahead of Drexler, Payton, and Ewing. Isn't this a fair ranking for him?

Robinson as a player is not the same as Robinson as far as all-time lists go. He underachieved in the playoffs and that is what really hurts him.

Quote:
Only a few idiots say Jordan carried scrubs and won by himself and then you feel the need to respond with some unnecessary biblical verse

OSB is an idiot? There are plenty of idiotic MJ fans but several of the intelligent ones say practically the same thing.

Quote:
Round you skip 63 and 66 when Guy Rodgers avg 10+ asts. Nobody was complaining about Magic and Stock once again. LOL GTFO with that 8 asts give u a ast title.

The point is it was much tougher to be credited for assists back then. No one really disputes this.

Last edited by Roundball_Rock : 02-25-2010 at 07:17 PM.
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Old 02-25-2010, 07:10 PM   #315
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

MVP

Russell - 5
Jordan - 5


Number of NBA championships

Russell - 11 He won 8 straight championships (an octo-peat)
Jordan - 6

Number of conference championships

Russell - 10
Jordan - 6

Number of times he failed to make the conference finals

Russell - 0
Jordan - 7

Number of times he failed to make the playoffs

Russell - 0
Jordan - 2

Number of losing seasons (below .500)

Russell - 0
Jordan - 5


Number of seasons playing college basketball

Russell - 3
Jordan - 3

Number of Championships

Russell - 2
Jordan - 1

Number of Final 4 appearances

Russell - 2
Jordan - 1


Bill Russell without Bob Cousy (6 seasons)

NBA Championships - 5
MVPs - 1

NBA Finals - 5
Best Record in the NBA - 2

Michael Jordan without Pippen (5 seasons)

NBA Championships - 0
MVPs - 0
NBA Finals - 0
Best Record in the NBA - 0


Bill Russell, first 3 years

NBA championships - 2
MVPs - 1
NBA Finals - 3
Best record in NBA - 3
Playoff record - 23-9
Losing Records 0


Michael Jordan, first 3 years

NBA championships - 0
MVPs - 0
NBA Finals - 0
Best record in NBA - 0
Playoff record - 1-9
Losing Records 3



Bill Russell

Years played 13
MVPs 5
Championships 11
First team all-defense 10


Michael Jordan

Years played 15

MVPs 5
Championships 6
First team all-defense 9



Jordan is great but in terms of achievements, Bill Russell is GREATER than Jordan. Finals MVP didn't exist during Russell's time.

Media over hype is what made Jordan the greatest in the eyes of many. Nothing draws the fans in to the game other than telling him the "greatest" player is currently playing on television. Give Russell, Wilt, Oscar, Kareem, etc. the benefit of advance cable and satellite television like it was during Jordan's time and they would be the ones bringing the NBA to a global audience.

Russell is an awesome rebounder averaging 22rpg, a surprisingly good ball handler for a big man since he often runs the ball after rebounding to get a clear pass down court and start the fastbreak, and of course a great defender. He is also a great passer; he was even ranked #5 in assists in one time and he is a center. Not most guards could do that. His scoring is alright at 15ppg. Not exactly mind blowing numbers but then EVERYONE on the 60's Celtics doesnt have mind blowing PPG. Red Auerbach runs a structured offense wherein all five guys on the floor have the opportunity to shine and score. The highest scorer on the team averages on 22ppg and there are five to six other guys scoring in double digits. Russell or anyone else on the Celtics need not to fully exert themselves on offense because the scoring is distributed. Russell has the same shooting percentage as the top two scorers (Sam Jones and Havlicek) on the team. Anyway back in college, Russ was scoring 20ppg with a 52FG%. The man has an all around game.

In short, you cant use Jordan's "all around game" as an excuse to put him over Russell in a GOAT debate. He also has a much higher college scoring average than Jordan (17 something PPG).
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