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Old 02-23-2010, 10:50 PM   #136
tontoz
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Has anyone actually watched old tapes of Wilt? I have only seen him a couple of times but it seemed like he didn't have any good moves inside. With his back to the basket he would turn to his right and shoot this strange fingerroll that wasn't a very good looking shot. Other than that i didn't see any moves.
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Old 02-23-2010, 10:54 PM   #137
Abraham Lincoln
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricForman
of course you dont totally dismiss it but you gotta look at it within reason. you pointing out magic or moses numbers saying why dont we wilt-doubters dismiss them? well becuase those numbers aren't too ridiculous. lebron comes close to magic numbers right now.

but as for wilt's 50 and 25? how can we take it seriously? how? im asking you, if you think its wrong for us to take his stats with a grain of salt, how can you watch the league today if you think the greatest players are 60% as good as wilt? how can you be excited over someone dropping 52 and 13 if wilt averaged 50 and 25?

the reason you still get excited over someone dropping 52 and 13 today is because you know wilts 50 and 25 isnt to be taken seriously. you say wilt was and monster this and that. no one is dismissing him saying he'd be a scrub. but do you really think he'd average 50 and 25 today? those numbers are not possible by anyone on earth, that's just a fact. so the fact wilt did them means either the rules were really messed up, the game was really messed up, or the overall level of competition was weak. probably a combination of all three and everyone of you, even abe lincoln and roundball, knows this.
--

Shot attempts, minutes played, & pace were the main factors as was the 12 ft. lane to a lesser degree. I agree evaluating the Dipper entirely based on stats is a bit misleading if one doesn't know much about him. To most fans this is the image of Wilt Chamberlain. Most do not realize he averaged 24 ppg during his peak season.
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Old 02-23-2010, 10:55 PM   #138
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

the one reason i continue to fight this batlte against these five goons, even though i know its a lost cause, its because im so sick and tired of their obnoxious, dismissive, tone.

look, any real basketball fan would agree that kareem and russell have a case for GOAT. even though i consider jordan goat, i wouldnt call someone completely wrong if he argued russell or kareem.

it's the way these goons continue to play up the gimmick that kareem/wilt are basically, the real goats, andt hat the only reason jordan is in the discussion is becuase we're all sheep and we fall for nike and gatorade and espn's marketing. f*cking stupid.

we've got eyes. as ive mentioned before, jordan's final minute as a bull is more clutch than anything wilt has done his entire damn career. his will to win throughout the 98 finals is something wilt has failed to show time and time again, and his peers all trashed him verbally for it.

yet you goons hold on to these, let's face it, absolutely ridiculous numbers (coming from a stat hog in an era when everyone had ridiculous stats) and try to argue otherwise. and if we dont agree its cause we're brainwashed by the media.

man get outta here with that nonsense.
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Old 02-23-2010, 10:56 PM   #139
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by tontoz
Has anyone actually watched old tapes of Wilt? I have only seen him a couple of times but it seemed like he didn't have any good moves inside. With his back to the basket he would turn to his right and shoot this strange fingerroll that wasn't a very good looking shot. Other than that i didn't see any moves.
This is one of the reasons (other than FT shooting) that I like Kareem better than Wilt. Kareem's game is and will forever be timeless, and it has proven to be so through his incredible longevity. I don't see that same quality in Wilt's scoring game.
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Old 02-23-2010, 10:57 PM   #140
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

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1-Success has a huge part to do with it.

Yes, and Lebron has had more of it thus far than Jordan. Oh, let's add MVP's:

MVP's after 6 seasons: Lebron 1, Jordan 1

Jordan won another MVP in his 7th season and Lebron barring injury will duplicate that feat this year (Kareem had 5 after 7 seasons--although when Lebron gets his 2nd you can bet the media will be talking about how Lebron equaled Jordan through 7 seasons )

I agree that if Lebron never wins a ring or has "only" 1 he will not enter the GOAT conversation. It would be difficult even with 2 but 3 should be enough. All that said, I can't see Lebron never winning a ring. He made the NBA finals with scrubs at 22 years old and went to the ECF last year. Give him a decent team and he wins--as he will show this year. What would be killer to the league is if he ever got a dominant team around him, like Jordan did. If Lebron is winning 60+ and contending even with average teams what could he do with a dominant team?

Success matters to an extent. How did Jordan become the media's GOAT by 93' with 3 rings and 3 MVP's? Compare that to what the other GOAT candidates had accomplished.

Quote:
. But I do know that there are only two people ever mentioned as the best player ever

Good point. Soccer, like every sport, has a GOAT discussion. Why is basketball the lone exception to this among sports?

Imo you can't be top 10 all-time without a ring but if Lebron gets even 1 he is in but top 10 all-time would be a failure for Lebron.

Quote:
I can understand why they would say "in the past 30 years". That was the beginning of the modern era

Regarding Maris, that was a legit asterik on a real record. No one made a fake record by saying "Player X hit 55 home runs in 1972 and Player Y is on track to beat that in 1997."

What modern era? What significant changes occurred in the game itself in 1980? In football you have the 67' NFL-AFL merger, in the NBA the shot clock's introduction and in NASCAR the new points system/cut back schedule in 1972. Basketball in 1980 was the same as 1979 or 1969 for that matter.

Quote:
Also, in 1962 Wilt played in a league with a smaller lane, no three point line, still partially segregated(thus less talent coming in)

Yes--and they widened the lane in order to limit him! Despite that he consistently dominated in his career.

The league average point is irrelevant. A record is a record, period. If we are going the league average route then Ruth's 60 >>>> everyone else forever. Besides, what was the league average in 1987 compared to 2010?

Quote:
That's the only reason I can think of. Which media source specifically made that statement regarding Kobe, by the way?

No one. It is implicit. Since the Bulls and Suns can't win I am hoping the Cavs or Lakers win just so I can at the reaction to either Kobe's 5th or Lebron's 1st.

Quote:
More like repeatedly excusing him for the same things you guys have held against Wilt.

When is the last time I bashed Wilt?

You have to admit it is funny you call having Kareem #1 all-time trolling and overrating him and then have him #3 at his position.

Quote:
Most do not realize he averaged 24 ppg during his peak season.

Yeah, people think of 50 ppg and 44 ppg Wilt and not 67' and 68' Wilt. 9 straight triple doubles!

Last edited by Roundball_Rock : 02-23-2010 at 11:01 PM.
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:00 PM   #141
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock

Jordan was elevated to majority GOAT by the media after 3 rings and 3 MVP's in 93'. How could this be if Jordan's elevation was done solely on merit? Kareem had 6 rings and 6 MVP's. Russell 11 rings and 5 MVP's. Magic 5 and 3. Bird 3 and 3, like Jordan. Wilt 2 and 4. So what made Jordan the "clear GOAT" in the eyes of the media? When he retired he was acclaimed as the greatest of all-time. On what basis?

Russell: 11 NBA finals
Kareem: 10 NBA finals
Magic: 9 NBA finals
Shaq: 6 NBA finals
Jordan: 6 NBA finals
Kobe: 6 NBA finals
Wilt: 5 NBA finals
Bird: 5 NBA finals
It's not just about championship, in 93 Jordan was pretty much at the top of everyone's list as the greatest of all time, including the list of Magic and Bird. That's how dominant he was. Magic and Bird didn't need a so call media hype. "There's Michael, and then there's the rest of us." How old you? I see you talking about older players but I wonder if you're like in your teens or something.
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:03 PM   #142
Abraham Lincoln
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by tontoz
Has anyone actually watched old tapes of Wilt? I have only seen him a couple of times but it seemed like he didn't have any good moves inside. With his back to the basket he would turn to his right and shoot this strange fingerroll that wasn't a very good looking shot. Other than that i didn't see any moves.
He had the finger roll, drop step, quick baseline spin, fall away shot, up & under step through, and sweeping hook.
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:03 PM   #143
jstern
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln
Indeed, the lack of proper perspective amongst the modern fan is astounding. It's gotten so bad to the point that some people think stars or great teams from even earlier in the decade would be subpar today. The way it's going it honestly wouldn't surprise me to see a time come when fans completely dismiss players from just one season prior.
The other day I commented about how many 15 year old dismiss Shaq as an all time great player because all the know is the older Shaq who saves his legs for the playoffs.
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:03 PM   #144
Abraham Lincoln
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal9
This is one of the reasons (other than FT shooting) that I like Kareem better than Wilt. Kareem's game is and will forever be timeless, and it has proven to be so through his incredible longevity. I don't see that same quality in Wilt's scoring game.

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Old 02-23-2010, 11:06 PM   #145
Abraham Lincoln
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricForman
the one reason i continue to fight this batlte against these five goons, even though i know its a lost cause, its because im so sick and tired of their obnoxious, dismissive, tone.

look, any real basketball fan would agree that kareem and russell have a case for GOAT. even though i consider jordan goat, i wouldnt call someone completely wrong if he argued russell or kareem.

it's the way these goons continue to play up the gimmick that kareem/wilt are basically, the real goats, andt hat the only reason jordan is in the discussion is becuase we're all sheep and we fall for nike and gatorade and espn's marketing. f*cking stupid.

we've got eyes. as ive mentioned before, jordan's final minute as a bull is more clutch than anything wilt has done his entire damn career. his will to win throughout the 98 finals is something wilt has failed to show time and time again, and his peers all trashed him verbally for it.

yet you goons hold on to these, let's face it, absolutely ridiculous numbers (coming from a stat hog in an era when everyone had ridiculous stats) and try to argue otherwise. and if we dont agree its cause we're brainwashed by the media.

man get outta here with that nonsense.


1967 EDF Game 5 > any game Jordan, Kareem, Russell, Bird, Magic, or Big O ever played at any level of basketball.
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:07 PM   #146
Abraham Lincoln
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by jstern
The other day I commented about how many 15 year old dismiss Shaq as an all time great player because all the know is the older Shaq who saves his legs for the playoffs.

Indeed.
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:08 PM   #147
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Yes, and Lebron has had more of it thus far than Jordan. Oh, let's add MVP's:

MVP's after 6 seasons: Lebron 1, Jordan 1

Jordan won another MVP in his 7th season and Lebron barring injury will duplicate that feat this year (Kareem had 5 after 7 seasons--although when Lebron gets his 2nd you can bet the media will be talking about how Lebron equaled Jordan through 7 seasons )

I agree that if Lebron never wins a ring or has "only" 1 he will not enter the GOAT conversation. It would be difficult even with 2 but 3 should be enough. All that said, I can't see Lebron never winning a ring. He made the NBA finals with scrubs at 22 years old and went to the ECF last year. Give him a decent team and he wins--as he will show this year. What would be killer to the league is if he ever got a dominant team around him, like Jordan did. If Lebron is winning 60+ and contending even with average teams what could he do with a dominant team?

Success matters to an extent. How did Jordan become the media's GOAT by 93' with 3 rings and 3 MVP's? Compare that to what the other GOAT candidates had accomplished.
Lets add Championships
Jordan 1/1
Lebron 0/1
Not that it matters, even if Jordan was 0/1 hed still be better then the Lebron.

Quote:
Good point. Soccer, like every sport, has a GOAT discussion. Why is basketball the lone exception to this among sports?
Wow. Nice way to twist it and completely lose the point. The point is that even after 40 years, Pele is still the consesus GOAT. Sure there is a discussion in Basketball, but just like Soccer, almost everyone picks 1 guy. I don't see basketball being much difference.
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:12 PM   #148
Roundball_Rock
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Lets add Championships
Jordan 1/1
Lebron 0/1
Not that it matters, even if Jordan was 0/1 hed still be better then the Lebron.

Jordan had 0 at this point in his career (February 1991).

Quote:
The point is that even after 40 years, Pele is still the consesus GOAT. Sure there is a discussion in Basketball, but just like Soccer, almost everyone picks 1 guy.

Soccer is a global sport so I can't comment on it because perceptions of it are shaped by the cultures of various countries. In America, though, there is a consistent trend. Yes, basketball is global too but basketball folklore is forged in America and interpreted for the world via American eyes.

Oh, did I really see a Jordan fan call Wilt a stat whore?
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:14 PM   #149
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
Jordan had 0 at this point in his career (February 1991).



Soccer is a global sport so I can't comment on it because perceptions of it are shaped by the cultures of various countries. In America, though, there is a consistent trend. Yes, basketball is global too but basketball folklore is forged in America and interpreted for the world via American eyes.

Oh, did I really see a Jordan fan call Wilt a stat whore?


Pele is not consensus.. Maradona is their too....
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:20 PM   #150
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Default Re: The Jordan hype train continues

Roundball the self proclaimed Bulls fan backing up Jordan as always.

Has anyone ever seen a poster that calls himself a fan of one team continually attack the greatest player in franchise history, not to mention all time as well.

Why did ESPN have an article on Jordan 12 years after he retired? Because he's the greatest, paying homage to him, getting to know what he thinks about the game today compared to when he played.

Who the hell cares about the players back in Wilt's time? They get acknowledges so move on. ESPN several times stated in a recent time period and not ever that the record was being broken for.

You're just an insecure hypocrite Roundball and it's truly sad to see.
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