30 minute Lebron video and a totally statless case for him to be top 20 ever. Today.

[Kblaze8855]

I get asked about doing a Lebron video all the time but I never feel like it because hes so well covered. But like Kobe...I just decided to do one big one to cover a good bit. Probably wont get another one for 10 years. But I cant justify disregarding him.

3 Parts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kZYzCsuYY8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Acz-QB7olis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdTMw7rwQqw



I was trying to decide how to go about discussing just how great this guy is....but I didnt want to bombard you with a list of numbers ESPN stuffs down your throat. So instead im gonna try to explain just why I think so highly of this guy...based on nothing but what he has done already.

Id like to first say that im not sure id actually put him as high as the number at the end of this...just that by what hes done on the floor there isnt much reason not to.


When you really think it out im not sure you can make a good case for more than 20-30 players ever being better than him. Usually for a 24 yearold you have to bring up what they will do later. but with Lebron...consider this:

Lebron is perhaps the most unusual player of all time looking at his combo of size and skills. Wilt, Shaq, Dirk, and Garnett types are tall/massive and have unusual agility, ball handling, and so on. But Lebron? Lebron is either taller of heavier than all but one person considered an elite PF all time and really I dont know that Duncan is over 270. I know hes not listed there but...who knows? point is this guy is a 4/5 sized player who plays 4 positions on a regular basis. His speed, strength, and agility are unheard of at his size. Because of it hes perhaps the greatest bully(in a good way) the league has seen outside Shaq types.

He plays one of the most aggressive and humbling(if you are guarding him...it has to shake your confidence a bit to just be big boyed the way he does) players ive ever seen. Right there with Barkley, a young Larry Johnson when he was on, Shawn Kemp, and maybe David Robinson as guys who physically just seemed too much to compete with.

Because of it(and very underrated skills) he has done more at 24 than most of the hall of fame ever did. Because of his physical ability hes had stretch of domination that had people questioning if he was even still playing basketball(they did so in a bad way....but he was getting the job done).

People love the numbers and all but going beyond them....

How many people have actually won anything as a teams best player that Lebron has not?

Off the top of my head(as all of this will be...feel free to correct anything I **** up on):

George Mikan
Dolph Schayes
Bob Davies
Niel Johnston
Paul Arizin
Joe Fulks
Bob Petitt
Russell
Wilt
Cowens/Hondo
Kareem
Reed
Hayes/Unseld
Rick Barry
Dennis/Gus Johnson
Walton
Bird
Magic
Moses
Isiah
Jordan
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
Billups/Ben Wallace
Wade
KG
Kobe

28 players. Lets throw out the guys who you just clearly arent gonna justify listing as better players than Lebron James. which gets us to:

George Mikan
Niel Johnston
Bob Petitt
Russell
Wilt
Cowens/Hondo
Kareem
Reed
Hayes/Unseld
Rick Barry
Dennis/Gus Johnson
Walton
Bird
Magic
Moses
Isiah
Jordan
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
Wade
KG
Kobe

23.

with all due respect to George Mikan...you...nor anyone who has common sense...is picking him over Lebron James. And im not sure you know who Johnston is. which doesnt make him worse...but when you look at his body of work and that he played with about 3 people on my first list in their primes? And that I Paul Arizin was the leading scorer on his title team even if not best player(I may need to look that up later)....I dont know if you give him the spot over Bron. Im gonna remove Mikan and Johnston for now.

Down to 21.

And how many of that 20 were ever considered the best player inthe NBA? I know that due to overlapping careers with all time elites....not many people veer have been considered the best. But still..how many? How many of those guys were ever as highly regarded league wide as Lebron is now? How many were MVP players?

Bob Petitt
Russell
Wilt
Cowens/Hondo
Kareem
Hayes/Unseld
Rick Barry
Walton
Reed
Bird
Magic
Moses
Jordan
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
KG
Kobe

We are down to 18. 15 if we throw out the kindness and just admit that 3 of them you would never take over Lebron. But I wont do that. Not right now at least.

With those 18 as a base...who else do we need to consider for the other 2 spots?

Lebron
Baylor
West
Oscar
Barkley
Malone
Doctor J
Cousy
Drob


Now...elgin Baylor.

You know what elgin BAylor is? Lebron 50 years ago....minus the fact he never won an MVP. He had outstanding stats, made the finals, and lost. At least 7 times. Maybe 9. Not clear on that. Fact is...unless one wants to base it entirely on stats he didnt accomplish anything Lebron didnt. And while people marvel at his athletic ability and dominance...you arent trading Lebron for Elgin Baylor. for reasons partly related to era Bron is gonna have better range, hes easily the greater athlete, and its not like Bron had the same thing to work with Elgin did. Elgin had at one point Jerry West and Wilt...and didnt win. So unless youre prepared to hit me with an intricate skill by skill comparison id go with Lebron if im starting a team.


West? I wont call Lebron better than Jerry West right now....though mst everything I said of Baylor applies to West. West never actually won anything Lebron didnt despite better teams to do it. They wn the 72 title but they didnt win it because of Jerry more than Wilt. And Jerry had one of the worst finals of all time when they won anyway. Due to my respect for his legacy as well as clutch play, defense, and passing....I generally rank him over Baylor...even if I cant explain why he was Baylors sidekick for years. Jerry West has a legacy greater than that of Lebrons and he did do just enough that I wouldnt argue if someone put him over bron. Nor would I really argue Baylor...but im not taking him over Lebron to win me a game.

Oscar needs no justification for top 20 nor a spot over Lebron legacy wise.

Barkley? He simply did nothing Lebron didnt. He was the Lebron of the 80s. Just too physical to contend with, great numbers, and some bad teams he took to more success than was likely. worse defender. Better rebounder. Similar passers. Comes down to what you need. I call it a near tossup. But Barkley did not accomplish anything in basketball Lebron didnt.


Karl Malone? My feelings on him are well known...and if not....

He was the most choke prone overrated player of my life and due partly to a skillset that wasnt of much use when you had to get a key basket id never...ever....take him over Lebron.

Doctor J? The 70s Lebron. Too physical. Ahead of his time. But he never did anything Lebron didnt till Moses came along...and Moses won them that title. You can call it a tossup with no argument from me.

Cousy?

3 words. **** outta here.

Set shot shooting pointguards who arent Magic Johnson arent for me. His greatest accomplishment is making flashy passing popular but he wasnt just...alone in it. But he was on the Celtics who allowed him to win and be noticed. They won a grip of titles without him. Tricky Dick McGuire was as amazing highlights wise to me and likely wins every ring Cousy did. I respect bob....but hes a 40s product. And 40s points did no have jumpers. Simply will not accept him being better on the floor...than Lebron. Best case is hes Steve Nash without a jumper...and Steve Nash as he is isnt as good as Lebron anyway.

Drob. see Barkley. 90s Lebron type. He never took his non outstanding team to the finals though. And he had better teams than the 07 Cavs. However...defense considered I wont argue if one wants him over Lebron. Anyway we come to 24 names.

Bob Petitt
Russell
Wilt
Reed
Cowens/Hondo
Kareem
Hayes/Unseld
Rick Barry
Walton
Bird
Magic
Moses
Jordan
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
KG
Kobe
Lebron
Baylor
West
Oscar
Barkley
Doctor J
Drob

show of hands...who is taking any of these people to start a team over Lebron James:

Cowens/Hondo
Rick Barry
Elgin Baylor
Petitt
Walton
Reed

?

I respect Dave Cowens and I find Hondo to be quite underrated. 8 titles, all nba many times, a 29/9/8 player in his prime, and maybe the best player on a title team. Id understand a case for him over Lebron. Cowens was the MVP over Hondo on the same team. So you gotta give him a nod too. So whoever you give credit to thonse rings for...fine. But consider this:

You are starting a team right now. You can have Lebron or one of them? Who is honestly taking one?

And that isnt an era thing t ome. Its a "What have I seen?" thing. Ive seen Lebron do everything I would want out of my best player. Ive seen a good bit of Hondo and Dave but I cant justify taking them over Bron with it. At best...Hondo equals Lebron. And Dave is what? Great rebounding guy who never scored at huige rates. Could pass, Play D. Hustle/heart guy. so hes what? Dwight with a jumper, passing and no superman hops(Cowens could jump...but not like Dwight)? I just dont see reason to rank them over him on the floor. By resume sure. On the floor? Eh.

Baylor and Bob P...at time underrated/disregarded. But I go back to starting a team. Who you got in that trio? Baylor is 50s Lebron. If I can have modern Lebron...I take him. Bob has an underrated legacy and my respect. But 20 minutes of footage and a resume built on pre Russell/wilt prime MVPs/title and an injured russell ring dont make me overlook the fact that Lebron is his height, 50 pounds bigger, and has a modern skillset. I wouldnt take him over Lebron and neither would you.

Walton? He was Tim Duncan...for about 45 minutes. Underrated when he was healthy. But....im not even gonna finish that.

Reed? He had a great stretch where he was elite on both ends. But the edge he has is because he was on a team that peaked at I believe 7 hall of famers and hes famous for limping out and making 2 jumpers before Frazier put up 36/19 and 5 steals to win the title. I put him next to Cowens. For whatever reason hes not given elite status even by those who watched him so...I wont break the trend. He had post moves, defense, a jumper, and toughness. But he doesnt come up when the all time greats...best of the best...come up. Injury problems hurt.

I think you can make a case that Lebron is the right pick over all 6 of them unless we get a promise from God that Walton and reed would be 100%.

As it stands I think you can put Lebron 18th on an all time list based on what hes done. And considering that Wade isnt considered better thn Lebron right now? And that a case can be made hes better than Kobe too? Whats to stop a 16th all time ranking? Who else we got?

[Kblaze8855]

Drexler, Nique, Ewing? I think that all 3 of them combined have 3 finals trips, 3 all nba first teams, and no MVPs. None of them led a 66 win team and all of them had more to work with than Lebron(even relative to era). Drexler have any skills Lebron didnt? You can argue hes an equal passer. Nothing else. His D was there when he felt like it but he didnt have the size of Lebron to guard as many types of players. Nique did not one thing better than Lebron. Nothing. But dunk. and we really counting that? He had prettier moves around the basket. A better floater. But he did nothing to rank him over Lebronn. Ewing gets the "Big man in a bad era of them" bonus when we pick teams but once again...

What exactly did he accomplish that Lebron didnt?

Yea. I didnt think so. Pre injury Ewing....might be the right pick over Lebron with our lack of centers. But he wasnt just more dominant. He couldnt do more with a bad team than Lebron.

Who else is there really?

Mchale, Parish, Mcadoo, Cunningham, and guysl ike that? Earl Monroe? gervin is about the best we have left. And Hayes/Unseld. Gervin scored more than Lebron. Arguably a flat out better scorer. And nothing else(though I loved him as a kid and always will...my 3rd favorite Bull ever). didnt win anything Bron didnt regular season or playoffs. Never won any award Bron didnt.

Who do we have who did ANYTHING Lebron has not....

At 24?

These 15 players I think you can say were better than Lebron and not get much argument:

Bob Petitt
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Bird
Magic
Moses
Jordan
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
Baylor
West
Oscar

*Id throw Isiah in there but many people wouldnt.*

And 3-4 of them you wouldnt actually take over Lebron to build a team.

There are only about 11 guys....ever...who are no brainer picks to rank over Lebron. And one of them?

Oscar robertson.

What exactly did Oscar do?

He got better stats in an era more prone to that. He won less. He has the same MVP. He won as a second fiddle. Know what Oscar has? The triple double legacy and a lot of all NBA teams. But he didnt actually....do...anything Lebron didnt. And plenty of people who have are as we speak not as highly regarded(Wade for one).

Lebron has joined Kobe on the short list of players who unless you use someone top 10 all time....you struggle to find anyone we can easily call flat out better.

We just as a society dont like the idea of ranking young guys that high.

But you know what? In 20 years when Lebron is considered top 20(and he will be) it will be current Lebron people mean. as offensive as the idea of Lebron being top 15 all time is....when he retires and is considered that(healthy..he will)...2009 Lebron is who they point to. we are watching a true all time elite player....playing on a level 90% of the hall of fame never did.

And the only reason not to rank him top 20 all time right now? It feels....early. Even if when we do...we mean the player hes been for 5 years.

Lebron at 19 was better than first ball hall of famers. Lebron inhis second season was better than Reggie Miller ever was.

We might not like the idea of it...but this kid has been top 50 all time good since 2 years before he could drink. And right now? Hes an MVP, 66 game winning, DPOY runner up, 3-4 time all nba first team, statistical monster who cant be guarded one on one and gets into the lane and does work as well as any non bigman short of Jordan...ever.

Its uncomfortable to hear or say but...Lebron..right now...is the player we will all rank top 5-15 all time in the future. Im ok if you cant make yourself do it now. But many people in 1988 wouldnt call MJ the GOAT. But when people say it now...they use 1988 to justify it.

Even throwing out all reasining ive used in here...you can call him top 25 before he turns 25. And he might play 15 more years. Last guy you could say that about was Shaq. And we saw how that went.

[checkman]

[Kblaze8855]

And even considering all that id like to say...

Hes not thaaaaaaaaaaaat much better than Wade. hes better. But hes not...Wade is top 60 and Lebron is top 20 better. If Lebron is top 25 Wade is top 35. Much of the sports world just doesnt want to accept it yet.

[madmax]

another amazing post and great evaluation of great player Lebron is easily the most dominant SF player I've seen in 20 years and he is only getting better...the only thing he is missing right now is titles and it looks like Cavs are finally ready to bring pieces together for him - I feel privileged to watch this amazing athlete play with my own eyes.

[checkman]

And even considering all that id like to say...

Hes not thaaaaaaaaaaaat much better than Wade. hes better. But hes not...Wade is top 60 and Lebron is top 20 better. If Lebron is top 25 Wade is top 35. Much of the sports world just doesnt want to accept it yet.

to me lebron and wade are the same

but if i had to choose one for my nba franchise ill choose lebron

no hate on wade and i think lebron and dwayne wade should be in the top 20 honestly well that's just my opinion

[bdreason]

He still needs to win multiple championships to get in the GOAT (top 5) discussion.

[Lebron23]

[guy]

Great post. I guess the best way to assess where a current player's all-time ranking is would be to pretend they got hit by a bus tomorrow and could never play again. Lebron would suffer alot from the lack of longevity, but I think he would still be top 20 or 25. Wade on the other hand would be about top 30-40 IMO just cause he's already been very injury prone.

In general, current players get very underrated. Lebron has been playing at an all-time great level for the past 4 years, Kobe has for about the past 7 years, and Wade has for most of the past 4 years. I would even add CP3 of the past 2 years, who is probably playing at a level that no PG since Magic Johnson has played at. Its a great time for the game right now.

[Fatal9]

at taking Kobe out but leaving West, Baylor, Oscar (amongst others) on. What the hell is wrong with you? Have you seen numbers Kobe has been putting up in the playoffs since he got his own team (at almost equal scoring efficiency as first three-peat Jordan too)? Lebron is still too flawed to take over a prime Kobe. I think his jumper has finally become consistent (though it didn't really take off till midway this season) but can't be sure.

And Lebron is not a better defender than Drexler, though like you pointed out, he may be more versatile. I have him as top 25 but that's only because he needs a couple more years to add to his legacy.

[KoolKat]

When you see it from that angle, you got a very valid point. But I'd take Kobe over Pettit\Baylor.

Nice mix, nice post

Hey, where you got all your footage man ?

[Kblaze8855]

I think the list changed a number of times. I wasnt paying the closest attention.there is a perfectly reasonable case to be made for Kobe over everyone I put Lebron over. though id rather have Lebron. Lebron is unstoppable because of things that dont vary with how hot he is. When his jumper doesnt fall he can still get to the basket every single time he tries.

Lebron having a terrible game means hes missing layups. Lebron bad games are flukey. Kobe bad games are because he takes some of the toughest shots in NBA history and nobody can make them all the time. Lebron is a more night in night out threat to play near his peak potential I think.

Kobe is amazing for his ability to make difficult shots. Lebron is amazing for his ability to not need to take a difficult shot.

[barbaroi]

You can't use this argument without acknowledging the converse. If None of these guys have ever done anything to put them over Lebron, Lebron has never done anything to put himself over the likes of Barkley, Baylor, and yes MALONE to name a few. Lebron has stats and.... what else? You're acting as if Lebron is this clear path to a great team more so than many greats of the past who had better stats than Lebron and just as much or more team success. If he is, I haven't seen it yet.

[Lebron23]

You can't use this argument without acknowledging the converse. If None of these guys have ever done anything to put them over Lebron, Lebron has never done anything to put himself over the likes of Barkley, Baylor, and yes MALONE to name a few. Lebron has stats and.... what else? You're acting as if Lebron is this clear path to a great team more so than many greats of the past who had better stats than Lebron and just as much or more team success. If he is, I haven't seen it yet.

I am not going to defend LeBron, but your favorite NBA player was being rated as a top 12 player of all time before he won his first NBA Finals MVP last year.

Give LeBron a chance because he still have many chances to win an NBA Finals MVP in the next decade.

[Kblaze8855]

Virtually everyone with better stats than Lebron had them in a time there were more to be had. Rebounds....shots...all that. Elgin Baylor was taking 33 shots a game. You would have to expect more points.

Besides the point wasnt that Lebron is factually better than guys like Barkley and Baylor(though he is better than Malone...). Its that those guys get top 10-20 rankings while not being better than him.

Hes the guy building his legacy. Hes the age Larry bird was at the end of his rookie season. And hes already done as much as some of the 10-20 best of all time. Im nto saying hes done more. I dont see a case for top 10 or anything.