If Lebron can guard 4s and 5s.................

[zizozain]

by the pic it seems like The Heat were the one playing defense.

''It's part of his super high IQ.''

Sad to say, but Kblaze has become one of those blind fans.

he's been sucking lebron balls for years



-

[Kblaze8855]

Sorry, blaze, but Bron can't. Switching up on a play to man a center doesn't = being able to guard him.

I've seen MJ guard the likes of Vlade Divac on switch ups, but that doesn't mean he could guard centers.

Jordan wasnt an inch shorter but 30 pounds heavier than Amare was at the draft combine. Jordan wasnt the same height but 20 pounds bigger than Joel Anthony.

Lebron is a ball handling bigman. He is at virtually no physical disadvantage that most power forwards wouldnt be at when guarding a bigman.

Let Bron try to guard Hibbert all game and he'll get worn down.

No more than the others guarding him. Miami has nobody you would call a good matchup there.

Let him guard a prime Dwight and he'd get owned.

Dwight has had 10 points guarded by people who he overmatches by a mile. Dwight rarely owns anyone the last few years.

Let him guard a prime Shaq and he'd get obliterated.

Sure he would. Like everyone else.


If Lebron were an unknown player of his size and athletic ability the idea that he CANT guard bigmen would be laughed at. Hes Shawn Kemp minus 2 inches but plus a cinder block.

[tpols]

There are no real 5s left. This isnt 1994 where he might have Shaq, Hakeem, Drob, Zo, Ewing, and so on to deal with.

Hibbert has not had a 30 point game in 15 months.

Play him 40 minutes Hibbert is gonna do about the same thing no matter who on this team is on him. They have a team full of small forwards, bigmen who play in 10 minute spurts, and a jump shooter who stopped rebounding.

That Hibbert could do good but not great scoring shouldnt shock anyone. Nobody was ever blown away by 23ppg. He would score reasonably well if Pippen, marion, or Dennis rodman were on the Heat in place of Lebron and ive seen every one of them guard centers.

And nobody ever came out upset about that fact being pointed out.

What about Lebron makes people annoyed?

Hes guarded Derrick Rose and hes guarded all star centers.

Why wouldnt someone say he can guard 1-5?

We disregarding the fact that....its...already happened?

I dont get what youre rambling about.. you say hibbert is Indys best scorer, but then say hes not a real 5 and his 23ppg doesnt matter.. which is it? Anyone 'can' guard anyone lol.. put me next to Shaq before the inbounds, Im technically guarding him. When he slams me on my head, I was still guarding him.

If he cant shut him down it doesnt matter.. Lebron isnt a great one on one defender period. Like you said hes a roamer and thats where hes most dangerous because if he gets a steal its -2 for the opposition and +2 dunk on the other side. One on one hes nothing to brag about at all.

[Sakkreth]

Why this thread kept going after first Kblaze post ?

[BlazerRed]

Yes. He can. Which is not an opinion. its a fact. He can and has guarded many. Its not even rare. The Heat started Battier at the 4 often and Lebron is bigger. They play lineups with Lebron on bigmen...all the time.

That they could still produce doesnt mean he cant guard them and the logic in place to suggest it does has never been applied in the history of the game.

Especially here. Posting numbers of people he is often not guarding?

As if...that means he cant guard them or....hes trying and failing?

Its almost as if basketball isnt even being watched to reach these conclusions.

David West....a 2 time all star...who put up 17 a game in 33 minutes for the season...doing 19 a game in 38 minutes...is not noteworthy.

And Hibbert...a guy Lebron is rarely guarding...getting 23 a game on good shooting while getting 7 offensive rebounds a game for a few putbacks does not mean Lebron cant guard him either.

It means Hibbert is a good player...a large one...who has been finishing well in traffic. Mostly...not on Lebron.

Is he supposed to be on them every second? Both of them I guess? With stops on George and Lance....so we can act like hes individually responsible for any points scored by the 4 people he guards even if hes only on each for portions of the game depending on matchups and situation?

Lebron can guard virtually the entire NBA id say aside from maybe Bynum. And he could guard him too. I just wouldnt expect much.

Hes the size of Karl Malone.

He is as capable of guarding a bigman as most bigmen are.

Of course they will still score. Perhaps you didnt notice...but they score on eachother. When Lebron is scored on by a bigman...that means he cant guard bigmen....so....when a bigman scores on another big....does that mean that other big cant guard bigs?

Of course not. It means people score on their defenders. Especially good scorers.

Lebron can guard 4/5s. So could Pippen. And shawn Marion. Barkley guarded 2-5. So did Kevin Mchale. And Cliff Robinson. And rodman.

LJ/Zo still had good games vs the Bulls ,the Suns gave up points to everyone big or not, the Celtics got lit up by guards, forwards, and bigmen now and then, and Rodman had points dropped on him by Malone, Kemp, and much lesser bigmen and Jordan and Bird and much lesser swingmen.

Here is a duo of swingmen dropping 88 points on Scottie Pippens team:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRR3Jx8RvoI


What...can Scottie not guard small forwards?

Or are we gonna apply a little common sense to that situation?

Lebron being able to guard 95% of the planet doesnt mean hes gonna shut down every star on every possession and no other defender has ever been held to such a standard. Nobody else has such meager point totals held against him.

Talking about 18-20 points by bigmen hes nowhere near or guys who score on him 3 times in two games on the way to 21 points.

In the NBa stars score. They tend to score a bit more in the playoffs...often due to playing more minutes and being expected to carry the team in tough spots. Hibbert for example has played as many 40 minute games vs the Heat this series....as he has for the last 3 years combined. He plays 28 minutes a game. Of course his numbers shoot up when lineups tighten in the playoffs in a big series vs a team that plays small ball with Chris Bosh at the 5. Hes whoring them on the boards and getting whatever he wants.

Lebron is to stop him?

Then he hears about David wests numberS?

Or george?

Not like we couldnt expect that. Hes hearing about the less than spectacular point totals of guys he isnt defending now. Why would it stop?

Lebron is a roamer like many guys who can guard the entire league. Most guys like that are. He might be anywhere...on anyone. Hes not personally responsible for the entire opponents scoring output and 3 stars having a few 20 point nights says little of him.

It says this is the playoffs. Where you feed the key players the ball, play them 45 minutes if you must, and try to win.

Not....stop one guy on a team that has 3-4 options.

This isnt a team you take one guy from and they are helpless. There is nobody you just stick your bruce Bowen/rodman on and stick to the shooters.

Its a team. A good all around team.

Which is why nobody on it is scoring much. Surely not enough to get a great defender called out for allowing it.

At least not...any other great defender...ever.

I really do wish we had ISH 20-30 years ago to look back on. Id love to read a "Lol....I thought Michael Cooper was a good defender?!" topic when Andrew Toney drops 46 off the bench then compare it to topics on Lebron "allowing" 24 points to someone he wasnt even guarding or actually guarding someone who has 18 points nobody will ever have reason to mention again because nothing worth mentioning happened.

You want to hate on a guy getting lit up...be my guest. But find a guy who got lit up first.

Hibbert has been their best scorer and hes making like 3 of his 7-8 field goals a game off putbacks.

If this is worth hating I dont know what you guys would have done watching Mutombo have 50 points dropped on him or Parish give up 50 to Ewing in actual isolation situations.

Perhaps come away thinking they cant guard bigmen.

Because...you know...if someone scores points...that means you cant guard them.

Even if it isnt many points.

And you were guarding 3 other people too.

Thats where we are as fans.

Pauk?

[FKAri]

Yes. He can. Which is not an opinion. its a fact. He can and has guarded many. Its not even rare. The Heat started Battier at the 4 often and Lebron is bigger. They play lineups with Lebron on bigmen...all the time.

That they could still produce doesnt mean he cant guard them and the logic in place to suggest it does has never been applied in the history of the game.

Especially here. Posting numbers of people he is often not guarding?

As if...that means he cant guard them or....hes trying and failing?

Its almost as if basketball isnt even being watched to reach these conclusions.

David West....a 2 time all star...who put up 17 a game in 33 minutes for the season...doing 19 a game in 38 minutes...is not noteworthy.

And Hibbert...a guy Lebron is rarely guarding...getting 23 a game on good shooting while getting 7 offensive rebounds a game for a few putbacks does not mean Lebron cant guard him either.

It means Hibbert is a good player...a large one...who has been finishing well in traffic. Mostly...not on Lebron.

Is he supposed to be on them every second? Both of them I guess? With stops on George and Lance....so we can act like hes individually responsible for any points scored by the 4 people he guards even if hes only on each for portions of the game depending on matchups and situation?

Lebron can guard virtually the entire NBA id say aside from maybe Bynum. And he could guard him too. I just wouldnt expect much.

Hes the size of Karl Malone.

He is as capable of guarding a bigman as most bigmen are.

Of course they will still score. Perhaps you didnt notice...but they score on eachother. When Lebron is scored on by a bigman...that means he cant guard bigmen....so....when a bigman scores on another big....does that mean that other big cant guard bigs?

Of course not. It means people score on their defenders. Especially good scorers.

Lebron can guard 4/5s. So could Pippen. And shawn Marion. Barkley guarded 2-5. So did Kevin Mchale. And Cliff Robinson. And rodman.

LJ/Zo still had good games vs the Bulls ,the Suns gave up points to everyone big or not, the Celtics got lit up by guards, forwards, and bigmen now and then, and Rodman had points dropped on him by Malone, Kemp, and much lesser bigmen and Jordan and Bird and much lesser swingmen.

Here is a duo of swingmen dropping 88 points on Scottie Pippens team:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRR3Jx8RvoI


What...can Scottie not guard small forwards?

Or are we gonna apply a little common sense to that situation?

Lebron being able to guard 95% of the planet doesnt mean hes gonna shut down every star on every possession and no other defender has ever been held to such a standard. Nobody else has such meager point totals held against him.

Talking about 18-20 points by bigmen hes nowhere near or guys who score on him 3 times in two games on the way to 21 points.

In the NBa stars score. They tend to score a bit more in the playoffs...often due to playing more minutes and being expected to carry the team in tough spots. Hibbert for example has played as many 40 minute games vs the Heat this series....as he has for the last 3 years combined. He plays 28 minutes a game. Of course his numbers shoot up when lineups tighten in the playoffs in a big series vs a team that plays small ball with Chris Bosh at the 5. Hes whoring them on the boards and getting whatever he wants.

Lebron is to stop him?

Then he hears about David wests numberS?

Or george?

Not like we couldnt expect that. Hes hearing about the less than spectacular point totals of guys he isnt defending now. Why would it stop?

Lebron is a roamer like many guys who can guard the entire league. Most guys like that are. He might be anywhere...on anyone. Hes not personally responsible for the entire opponents scoring output and 3 stars having a few 20 point nights says little of him.

It says this is the playoffs. Where you feed the key players the ball, play them 45 minutes if you must, and try to win.

Not....stop one guy on a team that has 3-4 options.

This isnt a team you take one guy from and they are helpless. There is nobody you just stick your bruce Bowen/rodman on and stick to the shooters.

Its a team. A good all around team.

Which is why nobody on it is scoring much. Surely not enough to get a great defender called out for allowing it.

At least not...any other great defender...ever.

I really do wish we had ISH 20-30 years ago to look back on. Id love to read a "Lol....I thought Michael Cooper was a good defender?!" topic when Andrew Toney drops 46 off the bench then compare it to topics on Lebron "allowing" 24 points to someone he wasnt even guarding or actually guarding someone who has 18 points nobody will ever have reason to mention again because nothing worth mentioning happened.

You want to hate on a guy getting lit up...be my guest. But find a guy who got lit up first.

Hibbert has been their best scorer and hes making like 3 of his 7-8 field goals a game off putbacks.

If this is worth hating I dont know what you guys would have done watching Mutombo have 50 points dropped on him or Parish give up 50 to Ewing in actual isolation situations.

Perhaps come away thinking they cant guard bigmen.

Because...you know...if someone scores points...that means you cant guard them.

Even if it isnt many points.

And you were guarding 3 other people too.

Thats where we are as fans.

So what you're saying is...





































There are over 350 million people on this planet that Lebron simply can't guard. Only one of which is in the NBA (Bynum)

[Kblaze8855]

I wish I could find the old arguments on Diaw after it became clear he was gonna play the 5 when Amare was gonna miss the season but I believe it was on the old ezboard and therefore lost.

Diaw wasnt even fat yet. Dude was 6'7'' or 6'8'' and 225 pounds or so(he was weighed at 215 3 years earlier). People said he cant play the 5. Year later...hes played and guarded 5s 70 games in a row and its....."Oh...I forgot there are only 3 centers who can score anyway".

How you people watch Shawn Marion, Diaw, and 18 minutes of Kurt thomas defend the entire NBA and then conclude that Lebron couldnt is amazing.

Marion guarded 5s...so did Nocioni on the Bulls. Diaw. Joel Anthony. And many many many others smaller and worse in the post than Lebron.

But Lebron....cant. Its not just....not the best use of him.

He cant do it.

220 pound Boris Diaw can guard Yao Ming. Tyrus thomas....a 225 pound jumping jack with no base....guards centers all the time. And has since he was a 215 pound rookie.

Lebron....6'8'' 260-278 depending on the source....cant guard the 80% of bigmen who are no threat to score no matter who guards them.

Think this out people.

All I ask.

Use...your memory. Compare and contrast.

This is fairly simple shit here.

If you didnt know who Lebron was...he walks on the court and takes the other teams 4 or 5....

You dont assume "He cant guard him".

You see a power forward guarding another power forward.

The only reason you dont see Lebron as that...is because he handles the ball and plays outside.

But he is in a power forwards body.

And there is no reason to assume he cant do as well as an average one.

Especially after watching him do it....

This is almost word for word the same argument used to suggest Diaw couldnt. And diaw was smaller and worse than Lebron in every physical way along with not exactly being a monster on the ball or in the post.

Lebron could guard anyone Joel Anthony could. It would be a mismatch vs Bynum, Hibbert, and Demarcus Cousins just like it when Joel is on him.

But we dont say Joel cant guard bigmen.

We say...hes an undersized center.

And Lebron has 20+ pounds on him and a world of athletic ability.

Someone....please...explain to me why Lebron...CANT...defend bigmen...

And Diaw DID...for over a year.

Break that down to me oh logical ISH.

[Thechosen1]

because its the in thing now to slurp lebron

[Kblaze8855]

Oh and since people seem to think this is a Lebron thing....this is me in 2006 on Adam Morrison(I was trying to find when I was explaining to people that diaw could and would defend centers before he did it and I was proven right):

To say Adam cant play 4 at any time is just flat out stupid. Like if he steps on the floor and coach says "You got Madsen" the team will collapse and everyone will watch in awe as Madsen goes for 68. And rebounding isnt needed to be a power forward. Its wanted. just like its wanted for a center. Yet I notice Eddy Curry and his 5 rebounds and total lack of defensive effort still play.

Players who arent good defenders arent scored on at a rate equal to that defensive inability compared to good defenders. Kobe gave Mo Pete and company 81. Doesnt mean he gives Morrison 150.

They play the Nets you put him on Clifford Robinson. Bulls? Ben Wallace or PJ Brown. Cavs? Marshall(who at this point just camps out i nthe corner) or Anderson with some time on Gooden. Magic? Darko. Who isnt a terrible scorer but isnt going off for 40. Put on on Reggie Evans or Jeff Foster and somehow I dont expect Wilts records to be in danger. Theres a long list of players that he could be put on with Emeka and Wallace on the floor and a good scheme. And its made even longer considering the fact that the zone can be used to almost render his man to man talent irrelevant.

Ive seen Diaw play center, Glenn Robinson play 4, Darius Miles play the point(for the cavs), Anthony Mason be a point forward, Jalen Rose(briefly), Chris Mullin, Antawn Jamison, Antawn Walker, and any number of other low on D high on offense mismatch players play the 4 or 5 some of them no better on D or as rebounders.

Week into the season I watched him defend 4s and not be scored on plenty of times because you put on people not expected to score.

I watched Adam Morrison defend power forwards in this league.

Adam ****ing Morrison.

The idea that Lebron cant is nothing but ignoring the leagues history.

You could put Lebron on the other teams 4 every game for the rest of his career and nothing amazing is gonna happen.

You could put him on most 5s without issue. They just dont score anymore. As I said Hibbert has not had 30 in 15 months and people act like hes some monster.

Its a mismatch vs the same people a guy like Anthony, Birdman, or many other 4s have a mismatch against.

But people smaller and worse than Lebron around the basket guard bigmen EVERY day.

People are far too into titles and roles. The game on the floor puts people along the lines of Lebron onto 4s and 5s all the time. Ive been watching it happen too long to pretend otherwise. Ive watched Detlef Schremph defend Karl Malone.

But im gonna say Lebron cant guard these bums out here....

[tmacattack33]

Haters mad because Lebron is doing a great job guarding one of the best offensive PF's in the league , the 6'10 250 lb David West.

Sorry guys...your God Michael Jordan could not do that. Lebron can. Deal with it

[eriX]

someone lock this thread already kblaze already destroyed all the arguments so far

[tpols]

someone lock this thread already kblaze already destroyed all the arguments so far

Hes basically said since Lebron is big, he can guard big men.. and since hes fast he can guard guards.

Just took 10000 words to say something very simple.

No shit.. Lebrons defense hasnt been a problem at all in this series. But for a DPOY runner up.. having Paul George shoot 55+% on you in iso situations? Getting blown by and allowing a 6'10 dude with shaky handles to control the ball effortlessly all game? It just shows Lebron's one on one D is overrated.

Lebron doesnt have active, quick hands or feet in one on one situations.

He doesnt have incredible lateral reflexes.

He doesnt crowd you or lock you up in any way shape or form.

Lebron sits back and plays man defense very safe.. doesnt try to foul. Tries to go for only clean blocks and strips.. isnt physical with it. Flops like a fish out of water when any contact is actually made.

His iso D and the garbage argument that he can guard every position WELL, thats the key term, is just that.. its garbage.

Can Lebron guard all positions? Yes. At the third place DPOY he was voted at? Fvck no. Not close.

[Kblaze8855]

Hes basically said since Lebron is big, he can guard big men.. and since hes fast he can guard guards.

Just took 10000 words to say something very simple.

And yet...people dont seem aware of it.

No shit.. Lebrons defense hasnt been a problem at all in this series. But for a DPOY runner up.. having Paul George shoot 55+% on you in iso situations? Getting blown by and allowing a 6'10 dude with shaky handles to control the ball effortlessly all game? It just shows Lebron's one on one D is overrated.

Lebron doesnt have active, quick hands or feet in one on one situations.

He doesnt have incredible lateral reflexes.

He doesnt crowd you or lock you up in any way shape or form.

Lebron sits back and plays man defense very safe.. doesnt try to foul. Tries to go for only clean blocks and strips.. isnt physical with it. Flops like a fish out of water when any contact is actually made.

So....only people being locked up are being guarded? Let me be sure I understand that.

If someone blows by you...or...scores somehow...it means you cant guard them?

Or...does it mean you are playing basketball where....that happens?

His iso D and the garbage argument that he can guard every position WELL, thats the key term, is just that.. its garbage.

Can Lebron guard all positions? Yes. At the third place DPOY he was voted at? Fvck no. Not close.

Marcus Camby WON the dpoy. Chris Dudley blows him away as a man to man defender. He was never special at it.

Doesnt mean he cant guard his opponent.

It means that the extreme vast majority of defense isnt 3 seconds of being attacked in isolation.

When I say Lebron can guard everyone...I mean NBA defense.

Defense is not 120 man to man drills. Its traps....going over/under screens...its switching...its ball denial...its fronting your man in the post....its getting back....its defensive rebounding.


Lebron....like far more people than are given credit for it....can do most of that and unlike most of them....he can do it while being a power forwards size. Which is why hes a bit better at the physical side of it inside especially for ball denial.

Which is why hes on bigmen....all the time.

When someone asks me if something can be done...the fact that ive seen it done....factors in.

You ask me if Derrick Rose can guard Roy Hibbert....im gonna have to assume he cant. Or at least...if he tried...its an emergency.

You ask if Lebron can....

Ive see him do it.

It didnt look especially odd. Nothing of note happened.

How is my conclusion not to be "Yes"?

Same logic I applied to Diaw before he did it an entire season. Same Logic I applied to Morrison before he found himself on many of the stretch 4s I said he would.

This isnt a fantasy world where guarding a bigman is a post scoring drill. Lebron isnt guarding anyone entire games. Hes one of several people on his team who guards 3 positions. Team hes playing has 3 if not 5 threats in the halfcourt. Of what use is being versatile if you only do one thing?

The Heat are kinda like the Woodson Hawks. A gang of big small forwards and a 4 playing the 5. So many people around the same size...good mobility. You can...if you must...switch everything.

Lebron goes 1-5 if he must. Battier can too. Bosh 3-5. Wade 1-3. Haslem 3-5 if he has to.

This isnt Lebron specific.

This is a big small forward. Big small forwards have been guarding the entire other team since Satch Sanders on the Celtics with Russell.

But when its Lebron its a big debate?

Lebron can and has.

Pippen could and did.

Marion could and did.

Diaw could and did.

Nocioni went 2-5 on defense ALL the time.

Whats the problem?

Lebron almost winning DPOY means if the other guy isnt shut down hes incapable of guarding him?

Do you actually believe Scottie Pippen shut down all the guys he guarded?

Or even most of them?

There are the Bowens/Lindsey Hunters/Rodmans/Indy Artests

And there are the Lebrons/Pippens/Marions.

There are a few hybrids like Jordan who do a bit of both.

None of them need to toally stop anyone to prove capable of guarding them. And only the Bowen group is even there to really try.

Lebron isnt a "Stick to this guy and do nothing else" defender.

He shouldnt try to be.

Almost all those guys are role players who wear themselves out on D and cant do much else.

Almost winning DPOY doesnt make him Bruce Bowen. And it doesnt mean he should attempt to be.

He should do his job.

Which is exactly what he does.

And it is effective. He doesnt need to guard David West the entire game to do that.

He is a very effective defender doing what he does. He shouldnt stop because people on the internet think defense is your opposing positions shooting percentage no matter how they come by it.

[taucesays]

He can prevent guys like Perkins and Chandler from getting open dunks. Tim Duncan or either Gasol would eat him alive.

[sportjames23]

Haters mad because Lebron is doing a great job guarding one of the best offensive PF's in the league , the 6'10 250 lb David West.

Sorry guys...your God Michael Jordan could not do that. Lebron can. Deal with it

My God Michael Jordan also couldn't lose in the Finals. Lebron could doe!