Handchecking nullified in this era by the amount of pick and roll ran

[Akhenaten]

It's a constantly belaboured talking point that today's guard's effectiveness would be severely hampered by they type of handchecking allowed in the 80/90's (nevermind that real handchecking was banned in the 70's).

However how can you handcheck someone who is running you off a never ending series of screens like how today's guards do?

This the main reason why GP (one the best at handchecking) found guarding Stockton more difficult than guarding MJ who didnt use picks much.

How do you handcheck CP3 or Steph Curry? they will just keep calling picks to get you up off them.

Gotta remember guards back in the day didnt run nowhere near the amount of screenroll ran today, Stockton is the only guy I can think of.

[Thorpesaurous]

It's a constantly belaboured talking point that today's guard's effectiveness would be severely hampered by they type of handchecking allowed in the 80/90's (nevermind that real handchecking was banned in the 70's).

However how can you handcheck someone who is running you off a never ending series of screens like how today's guards do?

This the main reason why GP (one the best at handchecking) found guarding Stockton more difficult than guarding MJ who didnt use picks much.

How do you handcheck CP3 or Steph Curry? they will just keep calling picks to get you up off them.

Gotta remember guards back in the day didnt run nowhere near the amount of screenroll ran today, Stockton is the only guy I can think of.

My belief is that there's a bit of a chicken and the egg thing going on here too, not that you're theory is wrong.

One of the reasons I believe we're seeing so much pick and roll is because the outlawing of the handcheck has made the PnR much more viable. In defending a guy while handchecking who's setting up a lot of pick and roll, the serious hand defender would guide the ball handler either away from the screen, or up high enough over the screener to make it much easier to defend. Someone like Derek Harper for example, could drive a smaller guard to a side of the floor and really take away that over the top into the middle if need be.

However, eliminating the handchecking has yielded smaller quicker guards, who also happen to excel a little more at getting into that space mid court and work that high PnR and kicks to the corners.

I'm beginning to think this trend is less about absolute value than it is about trend value.

Either way all of this stuff is becoming more interesting to me to think about the more I see yeilds from the new data, like the Sports VU stuff, and some of the graphing stuff that's being done.

[Akhenaten]

One of the reasons I believe we're seeing so much pick and roll is because the outlawing of the handcheck has made the PnR much more viable.

That doesn't make any sense, if you're allowed to put your hands on me and "steer" me, that would make PnR MORE viable in that instance not the other way around. If you are not allowed to handcheck me then I don't need a screen to free me up because you're not allowed to impede my progress.

In defending a guy while handchecking who's setting up a lot of pick and roll, the serious hand defender would guide the ball handler either away from the screen, or up high enough over the screener to make it much easier to defend.

Man cut it out, John Stockon weighed about 120 pounds and I've never seen Harper or anyone else successfully "guide" him away from a screen. If a guy has crafty enough handle and people who know HOW to set good screens, you're not "guiding" him anywhere GTFOH.

Also, in order to "guide" (this is such stupid hyperbole BTW) someone they have to be moving or attempting to move, if I'm a ballhandler In can just stay in one place protect my dribble and wait for the screen to be set THEN move...HANDCHECK NULLIFIED!

Someone like Derek Harper for example, could drive a smaller guard to a side of the floor and really take away that over the top into the middle if need be.

foolishness, see above post. Also I can just have my screener set the pick higher out on the floor, shoot if Derek Harper get's up into me right after I pass half-court for instance I just have my big screen him out there. Which brings his big FAR away from the basket and stretches out the D.

If he get's around the screen and attempts to handcheck again, GUESS WHAT I have my big set ANOTHER screen, and ANOTHER, and ANOTHER screen...HANDCHECK NULLIFED!

However, eliminating the handchecking has yielded smaller quicker guards, who also happen to excel a little more at getting into that space mid court and work that high PnR and kicks to the corners.

Eliminating hanchecking created smaller/quicker guards? What is the HELL are talking about man? You one of them smart dumb nikkas huh smh

I'm beginning to think this trend is less about absolute value than it is about trend value.

Either way all of this stuff is becoming more interesting to me to think about the more I see yeilds from the new data, like the Sports VU stuff, and some of the graphing stuff that's being done.

Lot of sophistry here, bunch a nonsense.

[Myth]

OP reachin.

[Thorpesaurous]

I don't think you're following.

And yes, eliminating the hand check did create more small guards, because the asset they have of being quicker was blown out of proportion compared to what it used to be. And at the same time the bigger guards weren't allowed to use one of their biggest assets in the hand check.

The PnR flourishing flows out of that because as those bigger guards disappeared, so did their ability to finish more in the paint, which led to these smaller ball handlers running more and more pick and roll.

Combine that with the zone allowances that really allowed more defenses to flood the strong sides of the court, making the top more opportunistic to attack from, and then opening up the corners far more, and you have a perfect storm of the current type of roster we see today.

I don't post in here much anymore so I'm not sure what your agenda is, but once you get past it, you'll see a sort of natural flow of style that doesn't really have anything to do with player A being "better" than player B, which I suppose is what you're aiming at here.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Thorpsesaurus is absolutely right, and lol @ OP for discounting what he's saying. In addition to the points he raised regarding the primary defender, handchecking/physical contact also means that the second defender in the P&R (usually a PF/C) was allowed to play the screen closer, since he didn't have to worry as much about getting blown by because he could be more physical. Today, the secondary defender invariably has to play WAY back, and this, in fact, is why you see a guy like Wade splitting so many P&R's in the '06-present era. Those gaps between bodies simply weren't there as much or as visibly in previous eras.

This is not to say a guy like Wade wouldn't be elite at splitting P&R's in any era, because he would (it DID happen, after all - guys like Jordan, Isiah etc. used to do it fairly frequently) - but he wouldn't be splitting them with nearly the regularity we saw from '06-'11.

[Thorpesaurous]

Thorpsesaurus is absolutely right, and lol @ OP for discounting what he's saying. In addition to the points he raised regarding the primary defender, handchecking/physical contact also means that the second defender in the P&R (usually a PF/C) was allowed to play the screen closer, since he didn't have to worry as much about getting blown by because he could be more physical. Today, the secondary defender invariably has to play WAY back, and this, in fact, is why you see a guy like Wade splitting so many P&R's in the '06-present era. Those gaps between bodies simply weren't there as much or as visibly in previous eras.

This is not to say a guy like Wade wouldn't be elite at splitting P&R's in any era, because he would (it DID happen, after all - guys like Jordan, Isiah etc. used to do it fairly frequently) - but he wouldn't be splitting them with nearly the regularity we saw from '06-'11.

Exactly. And in addition, the type of player who's out there isn't the same. There's a vast difference between Center Larry Sanders hedging, and PF Charles Oakley doing it. There was just less space. But eliminating the physicality raised the value on quickness.

And on top of that, there's been a second adjustment. Wade was splitting tons of weaker doubles than we'd seen from the previous eras, but in the last handfull of years, I'd say Garnett to Celtics era, we've seen less of it, because defenses are choosing to defend the pick and roll with sort of an aggressive drop off the roller and a coralling type of approach of the ball handler. And I think as such that's part of what's caused us to see in increase in the value of shooting. But it feels like we're still in the early stages of that trend.

[Pointguard]

Interesting point OP!

I will add that very quick and very strong players were never phased by hand checking. Players could hand check Barkley and Malone all day and it would mean absolutely nothing. They would spin off of it and be at an advantage, as a weaker player needs to pivot to gain any leverage playing defense with his hands. Once pivoted its harder to compensate for any type of movement.

Players without any physical assets/advantage would be hurt the most by hand checking (Harden, Al Jefferson, Dirk would probably be hit the hardest - Dirk is tall so maybe not him).

With quicker players, handchecking often looked sloppy and became a foul anyway. Especially if the player keeps the ball in front of the defender ala Parker, Rose, Kemba.