Elgin Baylor and Rick Barry > Scottie Pippen and John Havlicek

[Kblaze8855]

Baylor or Barry were the greatest all-around players on the planet at various points of their careers

Im not sure he would get that status over Oscar in the mid to late 60s or Doc or Hondo in the early to mid 70s.

Ive heard respectable people claim Hondo was the best wing defender they saw...ever. And he was scoring 27-29 a game and getting rebounds and hanging near the top of the league in assists at the same time.

Hondo could walk out on the court and play 54 minutes full speed elite on both ends of the floor. Ive heard few people compare Barrys defensive ability to Hondo.

[CavaliersFTW]

Who do you rank higher? Karl Malone or Dirk? Serious question, cavs.

What's the criteria? Dirk's career isn't done yet, tough call. I don't usually do rankings, rather I tend to make groups with guys that are clear-cut among the best all-time at their position to the point that it's too tough to put them below or above similarly talented or accomplished players.

In no particular order Garnett, Barkley, Dirk, Malone, Duncan (for at least the first half of his career when he played the spot), Pettit... I mean depending on what part of their accomplishments you want to isolate and prioritize you could make a case for any one of those guys over the next.

[CavaliersFTW]

Im not sure he would get that status over Oscar in the mid to late 60s or Doc or Hondo in the early to mid 70s.

Ive heard respectable people claim Hondo was the best wing defender they saw...ever. And he was scoring 27-29 a game and getting rebounds and hanging near the top of the league in assists at the same time.

Hondo could walk out on the court and play 54 minutes full speed elite on both ends of the floor. Ive heard few people compare Barrys defensive ability to Hondo.

From 59-65 Elgin was being described as perhaps the best all around player in the game (I'm sure there was a debate to be had on this at the time, but he was a name in the hat), I base this on all the audio I have of narrators and coaches from that time period saying exactly that. I put a lot of that dialogue in the baylor mix I just made. By the late 60's to early 70's Baylor's injuries more or less put him out of the discussions and perhaps West who had gotten better, and certainly Robertson and Barry (who were both in that discussion from the moment they entered the NBA) were then the stronger candidates.

[Kblaze8855]

I suspect I could find someone calling Oscar the best all around player twice for every time you could find anyone saying it of Baylor.


Which has nothing to do with how good I think Baylor is...just saying. That was a pretty widespread opinion.

A lot of people who remember those days have Oscar ahead of Wilt and russell too.

[G.O.A.T]

I like Havlicek as much as Baylor and Barry. Three different players, but all three were outstanding.

Here's a really long post I did years back comparing Baylor/Erving/Hondo.

I had, and still have Barry a few spots behind those guys, but only because he was such a pain in the ass that he never had the type of team success he could and should have.

Putting those four in any order behind LeBron and Bird is pretty much okay with me.

I suspect I could find someone calling Oscar the best all around player twice for every time you could find anyone saying it of Baylor.


Which has nothing to do with how good I think Baylor is...just saying. That was a pretty widespread opinion.

A lot of people who remember those days have Oscar ahead of Wilt and russell too.

I tend to agree that Robertson is the player most highly regarded from people within that era as both an All-Around talent and an all-time great.

Here's a good quote for the topic from Oscar, speaking humbly about rather or not he's the greatest player ever...

Am I the best? Probably not. It's not for me to say. I played when I played, and played, I think, against the greatest players in the greatest time in the history of basketball. I'll let my record speak for itself. Actually, I hope my kids and wife think I'm the greatest (laughs). Who do I think was the greatest? This might shock you: Elgin Baylor. He did so many great things. Nobody could guard him, playing in the forward spot. I'd love to see some of today's greats playing against Elgin. They couldn't guard him. Nobody could.

[Roundball_Rock]

From 59-65 Elgin was being described as perhaps the best all around player in the game

I suspect I could find someone calling Oscar the best all around player twice for every time you could find anyone saying it of Baylor.

Speaking of that, plenty of people called Pippen the best all-around player in 1994 and 1995 and several more had him second for some of the MJ years. Coaches and GM's voted him the best all-around player in a poll for ESPN or SI--a poll in which Pip was the only player to receive votes in every category.

[CavaliersFTW]

I suspect I could find someone calling Oscar the best all around player twice for every time you could find anyone saying it of Baylor.


Which has nothing to do with how good I think Baylor is...just saying. That was a pretty widespread opinion.

A lot of people who remember those days have Oscar ahead of Wilt and russell too.

Sure, I'm not going to take anything away from Oscar. Baylor was a 24 year old rookie in 1958, who had knee-pain troubles as early as 1963 even before his right knee cracked in 1965, his reign being discussed as "best all around player" was a brief and specific period of time, the very early 60's is when those dialogue clips about him being the best all around player in the game come from. But he definitely was at that level. With Oscar, it was more or less the entire 1960's decade he was in that discussion, which is great for him Im not trying to sell him short or anything but I'm talking about forwards in the OP.

I will entertain this sidebar a little further though. When people talk about the best all around players, I think longevity at doing they did and who watched them play, and when they watched them effects everyone's conclusions. Guys like Nate Thurmond for example, will say in interview Oscar or Jordan are the two best all around players he ever saw. Thurmond however, from what I understand did not really see Baylor in his peak unless he was catching Lakers games in Akron or Bowling Green Ohio in the early 60's and late 50's. Bill Russell and Chick Hearn for example, saw Oscar and Baylor both at their peaks, they are/were more apt to mention Baylor in such a discussion. Bill Russell has recently stated Baylor was the "best" player he ever saw, I don't know what his criteria was but I can only assume it was just all around ability since it obviously couldn't be championship accolades. Oscar btw, also thinks Baylor is the best player he ever saw. Of course, since it's directly from him he probably wouldn't put himself in the comparison. Chick Hearn and Red Aurbach also put Baylor as their all-time forward next to Larry Bird. Again, they can't be doing that due to his team success so it's got to be what they saw in his all-around ability to play the game. I think at one point in time, even if it was a brief window, Baylor was among the best 'all-around' players to ever play the game.

[WillC]

Rick Barry has certainly become one of the most underrated players in basketball history.

Many fans (and journalists) now rank him in the mid-20s all-time, which is ridiculous.

For example, in 1997, Slam magazine ranked Barry as the 12th best player of all-time (which, at the time, was the right call). Just six years later, in 2003, they ranked him 21st overall.

What happened in the space of six years to warrant him falling 9 places? He was suddenly overtaken by the likes of Isiah Thomas, John Havlicek, John Stockton and Walt Frazier.

None of those players were as good as Rick Barry.

[senelcoolidge]

Barry gets lots of hate. If the media doesn't like you than you are not going to be portrayed in a good light..kind of like Wilt. You have to make a Barry video at some point. Great great player. Just a difficult personality. Only guy to lead the NCAA, ABA, and NBA in scoring. Incredibly smart player on the court.

[Round Mound]

[B]Elgin Baylor is the Older NBA Version of Charles Barkley.

Those 2 Are The Most Underrated Great Players of All Time. They Totally Dominated More Than 90% Of Their Positions. But Since They Don

[inclinerator]

no loul deng on that list?

[Gifted Mind]

I've always said John Havlicek is an underrated player. I stand by this statement in this thread. One of the most underrated abilities is the ability to play with others.

[CavaliersFTW]

bump... in light of the recent "SF" thread

[played0ut]

Consider also that Pippen developed his game to directly complement MJ's-- he never went the route of Dr. J or Baylor with their first option high scoring route.

Also, consider Havlicek was the 6th man for the majority of his career. The years he started he was averaging apprx 25/8/7.

Talent/skillwise, I think they could have competed with the best as first option. But they didn't have the opportunity, so history will overlook them....

My tiers of SF's:

First: LeBron, Bird
Second: Dr. J, Baylor
Third: Barry, Hondo, Pippen
Fourth: Pierce, Worthy, Wilkins

I agree with this pretty much.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

My tiers of SF's:

First: LeBron, Bird
Second: Dr. J, Baylor
Third: Barry, Hondo, Pippen
Fourth: Pierce, Worthy, Wilkins

I'd put Melo in the 3rd tier...and Durant probably ends up in the 2nd...