Finals winning percentage

[Straight_Ballin]

both guys make 7 Finals

one wins 5, other wins 2

which one is more impressive?

thanks.

It's not so much the wins, but the massive gap between 2 and 7.

2/7 just looks bad


10 years from now fans will look at guys like MJ and be like "holy shit, this guy didn't know how to lose in the final and he didn't even know how to bring a finals series to 7 games" and then they will look at lebron's 2/7 and be like "wow... this guy really choked it all away despite having a team so damn good that it bought him all the way to the finals 7 times."

Losing in the finals is WASTED opportunity to get rings. It's hard enough to get to the finals and to get there that many times due to having a good enough team around you only to lose that much really speaks volumes about the quality of the leader of those losses. MJ understood the importance of this, that's why he made sure he won every single time.

[aj1987]

This one is pretty close, can we get the numbers and the teams both guys faced in these Playoffs?

thanks.

Before than can we do the same for the one you posted. Can we also post their teammates' numbers?

[pauk]

Stop melting down. 6/15....wtf are you talking about?! Learn the difference between finals 6/6 PERFECTION

I told you the difference... thats the only one, however all of it proves that 6/15 > 6/6... you or ANYBODY has yet objectively, logically, rationally explained why the **** losing earlier than Finals is more prestigious... if you can, then go ahead, i beg you, please!

and a "what if senario" that you put together in a desperate attempt to weakly justify Lebron's shitty 2/7 finals record.

Wait! You think this has to do with me defending Lebrons "finals record"!? Haaa!! Look, i will declare myself as a Lebron hater and everything you ever wish if you only would accept that i am only talking about that stupid Finals stat of your & your friends... even you know deep down inside how stupid it is, it doesnt disrespect just Lebron, but anybody in NBA history.... even Michael Jordan, if you think he wouldnt liked more Finals appearances those years he instead had early playoff exits then you are just a moron / just trolling....

I know you aint stupid, stop acting like it, you just wont let it slide because of Lebron hatred/insecurity agenda... you are a Jordan fan right? Why the **** would you be insecure / disrespect other players for his cause, Jordan will never be surpassed... and it has NOTHING to do with his god damn Finals stat...

How many times does his team have to bring him to the finals and hand him the wheel only for him to fail.

When has that ever happened??? Help me out here...

He wasnt even the best player on his team last night! Kyrie scored just as much and on better efficiency.

While Lebron also played far better defense, got far many rebounds... assists... not to downplay Kyrie's great night but he wasnt "best player" there... not to downplay the fact that Kyrie can outperform Lebron in a game, has happened... but he is not the best player there like you desperately want him to be... im sorry...

The 8/8 Havlicek argument was destroyed years ago, because Havlicek wasn't the man in all those finals. Just stop....

Neither was Kobe.... and infact Havlicek has only 1 less FMVP / MVP compared to him...

Why are they not ranked closely all-time then? Again, CONTEXT.... ***ing LOGIC....

[ImKobe]

Before than can we do the same for the one you posted. Can we also post their teammates' numbers?

Sure, why not. The guy that went 7/7 sounds like he would be on the same level with Jordan and Kobe.

[pauk]

both guys make 7 Finals

one wins 5, other wins 2

which one is more impressive?

thanks.

The guy who won 5...

But then, there is that damn annoying thing.. again... called context... which shows that guy who won 5 only won it as the man 2 times... as many as the guy who won 2... but with 4 less MVPs in his resume aswell....

Context is a partypooper... or else we would have Bill Russell as the GOAT, with the biggest gap ever....

If Kobe won 5 as the man/fmvp etc. i/we we would very reasonably debate about ranking him #2-#4 all-time somewhere.... i definitely would... even with 1 mvp... but that has not happened...

[ImKobe]

I told you the difference... thats the only one, however all of it proves that 6/15 > 6/6... you or ANYBODY has yet objectively, logically, rationally explained why the **** losing earlier than Finals is more prestigious... if you can, then go ahead, i beg you, please!



Wait! You think this has to do with me defending Lebrons "finals record"!? Haaa!! Look, i will declare myself as a Lebron hater and everything you ever wish if you only would accept that i am only talking about that stupid Finals stat of your & your friends... even you know deep down inside how stupid it is, it doesnt disrespect just Lebron, but anybody in NBA history.... even Michael Jordan, if you think he wouldnt liked more Finals appearances those years he instead had early playoff exits then you are just a moron / just trolling....

I know you aint stupid, stop acting like it, you just wont let it slide because of Lebron hatred/insecurity agenda... you are a Jordan fan right? Why the **** would you be insecure / disrespect other players for his cause, Jordan will never be surpassed... and it has NOTHING to do with his god damn Finals stat...




When has that ever happened??? Help me out here...



While Lebron also played far better defense, got far many rebounds... assists... not to downplay Kyrie's great night but he wasnt "best player" there... not to downplay the fact that Kyrie can outperform Lebron in a game, has happened... but he is not the best player there like you desperately want him to be... im sorry...






Neither was Kobe.... and infact Havlicek has only 1 less FMVP / MVP compared to him...

Why are they not ranked closely all-time then? Again, CONTEXT.... ***ing LOGIC....

are you seriously trying to compare Havlicek to Kobe?

the first 4 titles he won from age 22-25, he averaged 18 ppg on 39% shooting, was the 3rd best scorer on his team in at least half of his titles

who did he have as teammates? Prime Russell, Jones, Cousy

and this is from an era where you needed to win 2 (later 3) Playoff rounds for a championship who did they beat that was noteworthy?

Kobe beat prime Duncan 4 out of 7 times he made the Finals and was the best player in all of these series

are we really comparing Kobe's road to the Finals to a guy who's team needed to win 1 Playoff series to make the Finals for the first 3 of his 8 titles, where he wasn't even close to being the best player in the Playoffs?

What's next, you're going to compare Robert Horry's Finals wins to Kobe's?

[ImKobe]

The guy who won 5...

But then, there is that damn annoying thing.. again... called context... which shows that guy who won 5 only won it as the man 2 times... as many as the guy who won 2... but with 4 less MVPs in his resume aswell....

Context is a partypooper... or else we would have Bill Russell as the GOAT, with the biggest gap ever....

If Kobe won 5 as the man/fmvp etc. i/we we would very reasonably debate about ranking him #2-#4 all-time somewhere.... i definitely would... even with 1 mvp... but that has not happened...

you can argue that Kobe was the best or at least was 1a/1b in 2001, when he led the most dominant Playoff team of all-time in scoring through the first 3 rounds and was the best player overall on the road

b2b 45+ pt/10+ reb games on the road against Spurs/Kings, that's more impressive than if he did the same against the Sixers in the Finals, only that Shaq had the easier match-up because he wasn't going up against D-Rob/Duncan or Webber/Divac, so obviously he got more shots thus the FMVP

and kobe 2002 Finals, 27/6/5 on 51% shooting with 54% from 3, 8 ppg on 63% shooting in 4th quarters of that series, those are superstar numbers.

[pauk]

are you seriously trying to compare Havlicek to Kobe?

the first 4 titles he won from age 22-25, he averaged 18 ppg on 39% shooting, was the 3rd best scorer on his team in at least half of his titles

who did he have as teammates? Prime Russell, Jones, Cousy

and this is from an era where you needed to win 2 (later 3) Playoff rounds for a championship who did they beat that was noteworthy?

Kobe beat prime Duncan 4 out of 7 times he made the Finals and was the best player in all of these series

are we really comparing Kobe's road to the Finals to a guy who's team needed to win 1 Playoff series to make the Finals for the first 3 of his 8 titles, where he wasn't even close to being the best player in the Playoffs?

What's next, you're going to compare Robert Horry's Finals wins to Kobe's?

You clearly didnt get the point... i am talking about logic, context... much of the things you mentioned which sepparates somebody like Kobe from Havlicek that much.... because on paper 8/8 > 5/7... but using context, Kobe is far better...

Context, logic which yet again exposes the stupidty behind your fams "xofx in finals" stat creation....

...and i dont even mind that stupid stat, i just dont like contradiction it creates.... i mean if you truly believe the importance of the X of X in Finals, then go ahead and rank players like that all-time, strictly....... where John Havlicek is above Kobe.... and Jordan... and Lebron.... dont contradict yourself...

[ImKobe]

You clearly didnt get the point... i am talking about logic, context... much of the things you mentioned which sepparates somebody like Kobe from Havlicek that much.... because on paper 8/8 > 5/7... but using context, Kobe is far better...

yeah, but that's why 5/7 vs 2/7 is used when we debate Kobe vs. Lebron because both are all-time greats.. Lebron doesn't even have 7 Finals to his name if the East wasn't historically bad.. his best competition in the EC was a 56-win Raptors squad that was missing it's 3rd best player for almost all of the series

Kobe faced better competition en route to the Finals and beat the same teams Lebron lost to in 09 and 2010 despite Lebron having the better regular season record in both years and winning the MVP. That's why it's a legitimate argument when comparing players of same caliber.

It's not like Kobe faced trash teams in the Finals either, the two Finals losses were against all-time great defensive teams that had 4 HOF-level players in 04 Pistons and 08 Celtics. There's no shame in losing to the Warriors and I actually rooted for the Cavs to win these Finals but after Game 4 it was no question why they are going to lose the series. Lebron falls short in the 4th quarter for the 2nd straight year in the Finals. Even in the Game 5 that they won...he went 2/7 and his teammate closed the game out for him.

Just don't compare Lebron to Jordan after his teammate dropped 41 and scored 10 straight to close out the game in the 4th, Kyrie in Game 5 played more like MJ than Lebron ever has.

[aj1987]

Sure, why not. The guy that went 7/7 sounds like he would be on the same level with Jordan and Kobe.

Kobe who won 5 played with another dude who averaged 35/15/3/3 on 55%. Almost the same as the #2 and #3 options as 2/6, COMBINED. Shit level Finals against 50 win teams, while 2/6 is facing 73 win and 60+ win teams routinely in the Finals.

Just don't compare Lebron to Jordan after his teammate dropped 41 and scored 10 straight to close out the game in the 4th, Kyrie in Game 5 played more like MJ than Lebron ever has.

So, infinitely better than Chokebe?



6-24, carried not earned, etc..

[fourkicks44]

That doesn't make sense though.

Making the finals is better than not making it though. You're in with a chance to win at the very least. In that sense, how is 5/5 better than 5/10? It isn't.

5/10 is far better than 5/5. It means you were consistently at the top of the game, you were always in the finals and in the running for the big prize.

But when exactly in the social media age did finals winning percentage become a huge part? I cannot remember finals losses being so heavily criticised before 2011 or 2012.

It just baffles me that consistency in being at the top of the game is somehow regarded as bad. Think of it this way. Which player is better:

15 year span.
1 player makes it 10 years and wins 5 times
Another makes it 5 times and wins 5.

Which is better? The guy that was constantly making it to the very end, or the one who made it far less but just so happened to win it when he made it? For me, it is a very obvious answer, and it is the guy who was consistently winning and getting to the finals.

The point i'm trying to make is that finals winning percentage is misleading. If a player is 5/10 and another player is 5/5 subjectively you can say the player that was 5/10 was better because his team was one of the best in the league for 10 years. But claiming he was better for ten year despite not winning a title for 5 of those years can be looked at only individually because the team did not win. History exalts the Champions. Basketball is about winning. Those that did not win, fail.

I'm not saying that those who fail in the finals are not great. What I am saying is if you want to 'rank' the best; finals losses are an indication of player and not the team. There has to be a balance between winning (a team achievement) and individual accolades (eg. MVP, scoring titles, statistical records) in judging who the greatest players are.

You can sit here and say Lebron's statistical achievements make him top 3 of all time even though he has only won two rings. The counter argument is that he made the finals 7 times, 6 in a row a feat not seen of since Bill Russel's Celtics. Those 5 times he lost should count as individual accomplishments because it is an incredible feat by one player BUT his team only won twice.

Remember the ultimate goal of basketball is to WIN and in each and every game there are two teams: a winner and a loser. To judge who is the best individual player you must weigh up winning with the individual accomplishments. Finals losses should be counted as individual accomplishments, if even that.

I will say, however that Jordan's 6/6 is particularly impressive because he 3peated twice (with only 95 as the asterisk that we can all honestly understand in its context), essentially in a row. He was on top for that long then retired (again), but that is just my opinion on Jordan's finals percentage and I'm sure many people here would try to rip that to shreds to peg up there modern era heros.

[aj1987]

The point i'm trying to make is that finals winning percentage is misleading. If a player is 5/10 and another player is 5/5 subjectively you can say the player that was 5/10 was better because his team was one of the best in the league for 10 years. But claiming he was better for ten year despite not winning a title for 5 of those years can be looked at only individually because the team did not win. History exalts the Champions. Basketball is about winning. Those that did not win, fail.

Exactly. The 5/5 player FAILED to win more games than the 5/10 player 5 MORE times. The 5/10 player won more games than the 5/5 player. How hard is that to understand?

[fourkicks44]

Exactly. The 5/5 player FAILED to win more games than the 5/10 player 5 MORE times. The 5/10 player won more games than the 5/5 player. How hard is that to understand?

Yes you are correct, however they still did not win a championship 5 times hence why the 5/10 stands for the amount of seasons and not the amount of games.

If 'winning' was the total amount of games played in a season then the Warriors would have already won the championship before the Finals even started.

[aj1987]

Yes you are correct, however they still did not win a championship 5 times hence why the 5/10 stands for the amount of seasons and not the amount of games.

If 'winning' was the total amount of games played in a season then the Warriors would have already won the championship before the Finals even started.

That would still mean that 5/10 won more in the PO's than 5/5. 5 Finals wins and 5 CF wins >>>>>> 5 Finals wins.

[Asukal]

You all acting like bronbron's 6 straight finals appearances is something out of this world when in truth its really not. The eastern conference is a joke, it's a guaranteed trip to the finals for bronbron every single year and you clowns know it. It's always best western team vs bronbron's collusion team every year until he decides to hang em up. 2/7 celebration incoming!