All-around players are overrated

[SilkkTheShocker]

OP got destroyed by LeBron23

[I.R.Beast]

Theres a reason why teams like russells celtics or spurs are successful teams. Lebron is just lucky to be under sterns regime or else the spurs would have more chips.

And I dont think ball dominant players are not capable of winning. magic is a ball dominant player. Its just that he is a pure pg and not a score first pg. Players who score and pass at the same time are the ones who are detrimental to team ball. Thats why players like AI, arenas are considered cancerous.

Magic played on an extremely stacked team.... which is my point...In order for a ball dominant player to be successful they need a stacked team.

[dh144498]

I'll just report all of your posts, Get a F*cking job.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/member.php?u=3907

Permabanned

/40k posts

[I.R.Beast]

As a disclaimer, the reason LeBron couldn't win in Cleveland (or get further than he did in his playoff appearances) is more to do with the lack of offensive system instilled by Mike Brown rather than his own shortcomings. The team was exposed to a 'give it to LeBron and get out of the way' mentality in the playoffs, and that simply isn't going to work against smarter and more organised teams that could see it coming ten thousand miles away.

I believe that you and Quintilianus are on the right track about all-round players and winning championships, but you've got the wrong end of the stick. I'll use LeBron's recent title run as an example.

LeBron's career regular season averages are around 27-7-7, and we all (hopefully) know that he is at least above average in scoring, rebounding, passing and defending. However, in the playoffs, that average is distorted and the scoring and rebounding is bumped up at the expense of his passing.

The thing is, when push comes to shove, all-round players generally tend to have to play as more specialised players. In that intense Boston series? LeBron abandoned passing and went on an all out scoring assault, ending up with a 33-11-3 average. That's not 'LeBron-esque' - those numbers would suit a dominant center. His playoff averages were 30-10-5. Again, not something you'd see from a typical LeBron James season or series. Now, in the finals, the games lent itself for LeBron to play a more all-round game: he was mostly guarded by a smaller player (Sefolosha/Harden) and commanded a double team in the post, in which case he could dish it out to the spot-up shooters to drain the three. His finals averages were 29-10-7, which are a lot 'more' 'LeBron-esque'.

Let's not get it wrong, LeBron is a special all-round player. He has the ability to dominate scoring when it requires. He has the ability to become a lock down defender when required. He has the ability to dominate by playmaking if possible. It's not necessarily that all-round players are less successful; it's just that all-round players that play that way are less successful as their teams tend to be less balanced. However, if you do get a LeBron or Magic type all round player, they can arguably be more useful as they can play in more positions and dominate different aspects when the circumstance calls for it: the memorable 42-15 when Magic played center springs to mind. They can adapt to different situations and game plans because they can do more than one thing.

Contrast that to Kobe Bryant (boy I didn't want to make this comparison when I joined) who is more known for scoring but is a brilliant passer when he wants to be. Him and Michael Jordan are 'less' well-rounded because they don't possess the physical gifts LeBron does - they aren't as tall or powerful, but they are incredibly skilled and potent scorers, and can both pass the basketball very well when they want to. However, the role that was defined in their team is/was the go-to scorer, and they have both done that very successfully over the years. The only reason Kobe has changed to a more Magic type player over the past few games is that his team isn't doing well and he recognises that he has other dominant players around him.

Overall, however, it's worth bearing in mind that many players are more well-rounded than they appear to be, but that have a specific defined role in that team which makes them seem more one-dimensional than they actually are. Wrt to Quintilianus' post, the line he has drawn between 'one-thing dominant players' and 'all-round players' is more arbitrary than it seems.

Kobe is willing to try anything to win. Him being "pg/go-to-scorer" is hurting more than helping because despite all the assists the ball movement still hasnt been good enough. Kobe has never had to dominate the ball this much before to win since shaq left...it is not working, and it won't work. Because enough hands arent touch the ball, him facilitating takes nash job away from him now he is a spot up shooter with the rest. This is not a recipe for success.

Basketball is a simple sport to understand if you approach it logically man.

The same way you can never get the most out of all your employees if you pile all of the work on 1 them only leaving the rest to minimal amounts of work is the same principal in basketball. The company will suffer because the work load is more evenly distributed and you employees outside of the main one are contributing everything they can to the company to make it work as best as possible. Transpose the NBA team with the COMPANY and maybe you guys will catch the drift. How many teams over the past 20 years have 1 a title with a ball dominating superstar that was setting up every play if he wasnt scoring?..... I'll wait.... i count 2.... LBJ's heat and MAgic's lakers...and what did they have in common?... Stacked teams that made this otherwise disasterous approach to winning championships work.

[Mr Exlax]

Kobe is willing to try anything to win. Him being "pg/go-to-scorer" is hurting more than helping because despite all the assists the ball movement still hasnt been good enough. Kobe has never had to dominate the ball this much before to win since shaq left...it is not working, and it won't work. Because enough hands arent touch the ball, him facilitating takes nash job away from him now he is a spot up shooter with the rest. This is not a recipe for success.

Basketball is a simple sport to understand if you approach it logically man.

The same way you can never get the most out of all your employees if you pile all of the work on 1 them only leaving the rest to minimal amounts of work is the same principal in basketball. The company will suffer because the work load is more evenly distributed and you employees outside of the main one are contributing everything they can to the company to make it work as best as possible. Transpose the NBA team with the COMPANY and maybe you guys will catch the drift. How many teams over the past 20 years have 1 a title with a ball dominating superstar that was setting up every play if he wasnt scoring?..... I'll wait.... i count 2.... LBJ's heat and MAgic's lakers...and what did they have in common?... Stacked teams that made this otherwise disasterous approach to winning championships work.

I pretty much agree with you. I said it from the start that it's not a good thing to see when Lebron leads his team in that many different catagories. That's too much for one man to do. Cleveland Cavs 2.0

[Quintilianus]

Kobe is willing to try anything to win. Him being "pg/go-to-scorer" is hurting more than helping because despite all the assists the ball movement still hasnt been good enough. Kobe has never had to dominate the ball this much before to win since shaq left...it is not working, and it won't work. Because enough hands arent touch the ball, him facilitating takes nash job away from him now he is a spot up shooter with the rest. This is not a recipe for success.

Basketball is a simple sport to understand if you approach it logically man.

The same way you can never get the most out of all your employees if you pile all of the work on 1 them only leaving the rest to minimal amounts of work is the same principal in basketball. The company will suffer because the work load is more evenly distributed and you employees outside of the main one are contributing everything they can to the company to make it work as best as possible. Transpose the NBA team with the COMPANY and maybe you guys will catch the drift. How many teams over the past 20 years have 1 a title with a ball dominating superstar that was setting up every play if he wasnt scoring?..... I'll wait.... i count 2.... LBJ's heat and MAgic's lakers...and what did they have in common?... Stacked teams that made this otherwise disasterous approach to winning championships work.

I laugh at the thought that nash is being misused.
They have been using him as a full time ball dominant pg just when he came back from his injury, kobe had even more shots, because nash would find him, and kobe, being a player with probably the highest bball iq in the league surprisingly was a great off-ball player. Ir worked for a few games, but then lakers met their downfall yet again and kobe reinvented them with his magic mamba few weeks. Since then, Lakers have looked like an above average team. So the moral of this post is that when nash was a ball dominant PG the offense was much more centered around kobe, I mean he had that 41FGA game, and everybody who watched will say that he wasn't dominating the ball that game.

[Jailblazers7]

This is one of the top 5 worst threads I have ever seen.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I get what the thread creator is saying though, sometimes jack of all trades ... master of none types don't always get the job done. Because they have no speciality. Guys like MJ, Kobe, Bird, Wade ... they did everything well, have great all around games. But they could still go flip a switch and be the absolute best player on the floor at a certain aspect of the game IE scoring.

Pippen was a jack of all trades, and did nadda in 1994 with a motivated Bulls squad sans MJ who took the league by surprise. And then was struggling to stay above .500 without Jordan the next season. Why? He didn't have elite scoring abilities.

Thus kind of a glimpse into LeBron's 2010 and 2011 failures. He had a very limited offensive game. It was either transition dunk, or jacking a three off the dribble.

In 2012, he improved footwork, post game, his aggressive mentality and added a pinch post reliable post game ... and he finally started to develop a consistent mid range-ish scoring game. And BAM ... wins his first ring.

[longtime lurker]

Are you longtime lurker or Ne 1?

Tha ****?

[LikeABosh]

[knicksman]

Magic played on an extremely stacked team.... which is my point...In order for a ball dominant player to be successful they need a stacked team.

I dont think so.. Kareem was past his prime.