westbrook is overrated as a PG

[Jasper]

Westbrook is an outstanding athlete.
Ironically his play is less team oriented , and more about him getting to the hoop.
He could never play along side a true PG , but yet some of our current PG's are really twean'ers.

Westbrook is more of a modern day Iverson.

What I wish his coach would do , is work on his defense. His athleteic prowls , could make him an all time steal guru.... as well as a weak side rebounder on defense.

Ironically the guy he would play off of would be Lebron James.

[bizil]

Awww hell naww.

Rondo is a pure PG, triple double threat, and among the best defenders at the PG position. Curry and Westbrook are score first PG's BUT I STILL KNOW I'm getting 8-9 dimes a game. So I will take them over Rondo.

Other score first PG's like Lillard and Irving AREN'T giving me that level of dime droppin and floor generalship. SO FOR MY PG, I would rather have Rondo as of now. Now if u think Lillard and Irving are better players in general, THEN FINE! But for my PG, I would rather have Rondo right now.

In judging PG's, I put a HEAVY emphasis on pass first players and floor game. BUT if u have guys like Curry and Westbrook getting 24 points and 8-9 assists a night THEY ARE THE EXCEPTION!! For them scoring 24 a night, 8-9 assists is more than sufficient for a score first kind of PG.

[el gringos]

If you ever want to list posters who don't understand basketball (or at least basketball past the junior high level or girls basketball). All you have to do is keep track of people who think Westbrook should be a SG

[Vman23]

If you take away Westbrooks scoring ability, does anyone consider him a top 5 PG?

Its not to say he's not a superstar and a great player, but as a point guard it's hard to put him over guys like Lowry and Wall who are CLEARLY better than him as passers and game managers.

I legitimately think that OKC would be better with John Wall running the show for example. Not even a question, not even a doubt. The Wizards would be worse meanwhile with Westbrook running the show.

[Graviton]

If you take away Westbrooks scoring ability, does anyone consider him a top 5 PG?

Its not to say he's not a superstar and a great player, but as a point guard it's hard to put him over guys like Lowry and Wall who are CLEARLY better than him as passers and game managers.

I legitimately think that OKC would be better with John Wall running the show for example. Not even a question, not even a doubt. The Wizards would be worse meanwhile with Westbrook running the show.

Westbrook is an elite passer. His bullet passes especially. You obviously don't watch OKC enough to understand that. He just doesn't display that enough since the team NEEDS his scoring when you have 2 black holes on offense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEmuMesfz_w

And yes, Wall would definitely be better on OKC, passing to amazing big men like Ibaka, Adams, Perkins instead of scrubs like Nene, Gortat. And we all know Durant needs help getting set up, and more shots. So Wall could definitely help OKC by putting more pressure on Kevin and relying on their elite bigs to carry even a bigger load.

[Milbuck]

If you take away Westbrooks scoring ability, does anyone consider him a top 5 PG?

Its not to say he's not a superstar and a great player, but as a point guard it's hard to put him over guys like Lowry and Wall who are CLEARLY better than him as passers and game managers.

I legitimately think that OKC would be better with John Wall running the show for example. Not even a question, not even a doubt. The Wizards would be worse meanwhile with Westbrook running the show.

This logic makes no sense. You can't just say "take away his scoring ability"...that's what makes Westbrook, Westbrook.

That's like saying "take away Dirk's jumper, is he still a HOF PF?" I mean he's not an elite defensive anchor like KG, has a post game but doesn't dominate from there like peak Timmy, is an underrated rebounder but isn't close to someone like Barkley, etc. But what he does do is so unique and ridiculously valuable that he gets away with being such an unorthodox player for his position, and contributes to winning just like any other HOF PF would.

We can't just judge these players purely on our contrived positional demands, we gotta look at what they bring from an impact perspective...and Westbrook has shown that despite his stylistic weaknesses for his position, he's still a winner in every sense.

[Graviton]

This logic makes no sense. You can't just say "take away his scoring ability"...that's what makes Westbrook, Westbrook.

That's like saying "take away Dirk's jumper, is he still a HOF PF?" I mean he's not an elite defensive anchor like KG, has a post game but doesn't dominate from there like peak Timmy, is an underrated rebounder but isn't close to someone like Barkley, etc. But what he does do is so unique and ridiculously valuable that he gets away with being such an unorthodox player for his position, and contributes to winning just like any other HOF PF would.

We can't just judge these players purely on our contrived positional demands, we gotta look at what they bring from an impact perspective...and Westbrook has shown that despite his stylistic weaknesses for his position, he's still a winner in every sense.

Bro wtf you talking about, my calculator and ESPN says Westbrook doesn't have the necessary completely arbitrary assist statistics to be considered an elite PG. Who cares about impact and domination if you don't get double digit assists and play the most predictable way possible?

What you think is harder to contain and counter? A PG that overdribbles and always looks to pass, letting the defense set up and respond, or a PG that attacks the paint, breaks down the defense, then either scores or passes, has an unpredictable approach and presents matchup issues?

[swagga]

@ Lowry and Wall being in the top tier.

Idiot confirmed.

eat a bowl of dikks son, you are just a parasite tbh.

[swagga]

Westbrook is an elite passer. His bullet passes especially. You obviously don't watch OKC enough to understand that. He just doesn't display that enough since the team NEEDS his scoring when you have 2 black holes on offense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEmuMesfz_w

And yes, Wall would definitely be better on OKC, passing to amazing big men like Ibaka, Adams, Perkins instead of scrubs like Nene, Gortat. And we all know Durant needs help getting set up, and more shots. So Wall could definitely help OKC by putting more pressure on Kevin and relying on their elite bigs to carry even a bigger load.

funny troll

firstly there is a difference between an elite skill (passing) and using it.. For example kobe is a very good passer but he RARELY uses that skill consistently. Westbrook is a very good passer but he isn't consistent. Without consistency you never know what to expect from a player as a teammate. Not the best attribute for your team's main ballhandler, wouldn't you agree?

what okc needs is an offensive system and a pg that understands that the team needs him to initiate the offense and imprint an offensive system when things get tough. Westbrook doesn't understand this. People don't understand that it's not personal stats that matter but how the team plays, that's why the ball handler/pg runs the team, to get the offense (not himself) good shots.

When okc play something closed to organized ball instead of iso stuff they are world beaters, but everytime when shit hits the fan and they are in some hard situation/match/series you see why westbrook isn't such a great pg: dumb shots with 12 on the clock, offensive fouls, crazy turnovers, horrible pacing ... bad decisions. And when your ballhandler makes a bad decision it is very bad because your team isn't touching the ball that possession, it leads to offensive stagnation, sparks runs for the other team, opens up fastbreaks ..... things that we've seen time and time again happen for okc.

Because he plays so much iso and his range isn't that impressive, westbrook has shot .28, .29 and .22 from 3 on large volumes in the last 3 PO runs. As in he chucks like nuts.

Also westbrook gambles alot on defense because he lacks discipline, maybe his man doesn't score directly (rotations) but the defense is opened ... on the other hand wall is an elite defender. On a team with ibaka/perkins and other good/passable defenders westbrook's defensive rating is poor.

And last of all, the most important thing the team main ball handler has to do is to PACE THE TEAM. To weather the storm, to keep a run going, to work the clock, to feed the hot hand.. to control the game. ...... can you tell me with a straight face westbrook even understands this concept?

Let me put it this way, if wall had durant and ibaka and morrow/lamb they'd absolutely destroy teams with horns->pnr on the strong side and the shooter on the weak side. They'd be devastating and comparable to dallas/spurs in offensive rating, if not even better. If you add perkins they'd also have the best defense in the L with ibaka/perkins/wall all being very good/elite defenders.....they'd be clear cut favorites to win it all.

This year, when (hopefully) the thunder get in the playoffs, come back at this post when you see another run of bad decisions, bad pacing, inopportune runs and games just seemingly slipping away from okc.

[Graviton]

funny troll

firstly there is a difference between an elite skill (passing) and using it.. For example kobe is a very good passer but he RARELY uses that skill consistently. Westbrook is a very good passer but he isn't consistent. Without consistency you never know what to expect from a player as a teammate. Not the best attribute for your team's main ballhandler, wouldn't you agree?

Westbrook has the skill, don't confuse playstyle and willingness with ability. This OKC squad isn't build around team oriented passing, it's an ISO system based around Durant and Westbrook. You obviously don't understand that, no amount of "consistency" is going to help Ibaka, Adams and whatever D-League player is starting at SG. Durant and Westbrook HAVE to play selfishly at times.

what okc needs is an offensive system and a pg that understands that the team needs him to initiate the offense and imprint an offensive system when things get tough. Westbrook doesn't understand this. People don't understand that it's not personal stats that matter but how the team plays, that's why the ball handler/pg runs the team, to get the offense (not himself) good shots.

So how exactly is any of that on Westbrook and not the coach? You are directing all the blame to the young still raw PG when you should be focusing on the incompetent coach that runs no plays and his gameplan is always "Pass to Durant/Wetsbrook and pray for the best".

Popovich turned Parker into what he is today, after years of yelling and development. Westbrook doesn't have that, he still plays off his instincts and intensity. Kind of unfair to EXPECT him to be some god tier "Pure PG" that always makes the best decisions, isn't it?

When okc play something closed to organized ball instead of iso stuff they are world beaters, but everytime when shit hits the fan and they are in some hard situation/match/series you see why westbrook isn't such a great pg: dumb shots with 12 on the clock, offensive fouls, crazy turnovers, horrible pacing ... bad decisions. And when your ballhandler makes a bad decision it is very bad because your team isn't touching the ball that possession, it leads to offensive stagnation, sparks runs for the other team, opens up fastbreaks ..... things that we've seen time and time again happen for okc.

Again, do you expect Wetsbrook to also be the coach and create some amazing offensive system? That aside, even Chris Paul the "Best PG in the league" made some horrible decisions in the playoffs last year and cost his team the series. Nobody is perfect.

All OKC fans are aware of the terrible ISO system, that's nothing new. But why are you singling out Westbrook? He does make some dumb decisions, but so does Durant. They both have issues with turnovers and retarded shots. But as I said, that's on the coach to fix, but there is no discipline from Brooks, just cheerleading from the bench.

Because he plays so much iso and his range isn't that impressive, westbrook has shot .28, .29 and .22 from 3 on large volumes in the last 3 PO runs. As in he chucks like nuts.

Agree there, he does take too many 3s. But some of those are also the late in the shotclock hot potato type 3s that he has to take when the team passe shim the ball after a failed play.

Also westbrook gambles alot on defense because he lacks discipline, maybe his man doesn't score directly (rotations) but the defense is opened ... on the other hand wall is an elite defender. On a team with ibaka/perkins and other good/passable defenders westbrook's defensive rating is poor.

He may gamble at times, but that isn't a huge issue. His man to man defense and rebounding is good enough to make cover that. He showed his defensive prowess in the playoffs, against the best PGs in the West. Obviously it's not a problem if no PG can handle him.

And last of all, the most important thing the team main ball handler has to do is to PACE THE TEAM. To weather the storm, to keep a run going, to work the clock, to feed the hot hand.. to control the game. ...... can you tell me with a straight face westbrook even understands this concept?

He doesn't do that, instead he pushes the pace to another level and exhausts the opposing PG. It's what makes him so dangerous. He breaks down the defense on his own and opens up the floor for his teammates. That's enough of "controlling the game". He helps his team win regardless of your arbitrary irrelevant concepts.

Let me put it this way, if wall had durant and ibaka and morrow/lamb they'd absolutely destroy teams with horns->pnr on the strong side and the shooter on the weak side. They'd be devastating and comparable to dallas/spurs in offensive rating, if not even better. If you add perkins they'd also have the best defense in the L with ibaka/perkins/wall all being very good/elite defenders.....they'd be clear cut favorites to win it all.

This year, when (hopefully) the thunder get in the playoffs, come back at this post when you see another run of bad decisions, bad pacing, inopportune runs and games just seemingly slipping away from okc.

So Wall would somehow devastate the league with worse big men, worse bench, worse shooters? Durant would be the only upgrade and he doesn't need setting up. And did you just call Perkins/Ibaka "ELITE DEFENDERS"? Anyway, I would love to hear more about your delusional hypotheticals but it's obvious you have no idea wtf you are talking about.

Yes, "hopefully" his run of bad decisions and bad pacing can once again result in the destruction of elite PGs like Conley, Paul and Tony Parker and a deep playoff run. If only Westbrook played more like Wall, maybe he would be able to destroy those guys AND average a triple double.

[swagga]

dude, you've got some serious troll logic tbh.

Westbrook has the skill, don't confuse playstyle and willingness with ability. This OKC squad isn't build around team oriented passing, it's an ISO system based around Durant and Westbrook. You obviously don't understand that, no amount of "consistency" is going to help Ibaka, Adams and whatever D-League player is starting at SG. Durant and Westbrook HAVE to play selfishly at times.

i wasn't saying he doesn't have the skill, i was saying he doesn't have the composure to use that skill consistently to break down more advanced defenses for the benefit of the team. He is rarely in control when he attacks. Some games he shoots .55fg and other games he goes for 4-16 and 1-6 from 3.

You are plain wrong if you think no amount of consistency helps ibaka/adams/reggie jackson/morrow/lamb (who btw are not dleaguers). It is the opposite, the weaker their offensive skill the better they are if they know what to expect because they know where to be and what to do to maximize their skillset. E.g. I'll cut from the corner, do a loop and shoot it off the hop NOT i'll stay in the corner because I have no fcking clue as wtf westbrook is gonna do and if I somehow get the ball I'll scramble to shoot a three over a bigger defender that would come near me because of the broken play. Have you ever played organized basketball?

I agree he does have to play selfish in that system but when you are a top 5 player you speak with the coach. It's not like brooks is phil or pop and his word is scripture. It's quite the opposite. It's a situation where the lack of leadership/basketball iq of westbrook and durant is shown. Instead of mending a problem they ignore it. Don't you think cp3 speaks to his coaches and proposes stuff? That's some asinine argument that players do exactly what they are told, especially from no-name coaches like brooks that wouldn't bench a player even when they shoot from midcourt with 12 on the clock

So how exactly is any of that on Westbrook and not the coach? You are directing all the blame to the young still raw PG when you should be focusing on the incompetent coach that runs no plays and his gameplan is always "Pass to Durant/Wetsbrook and pray for the best".

westbrook is 26, at his age cp3 already had finished 2nd in mvp voting and had went to wcsf without a superstar like durant, so it's not like he is 21. Furthermore, when you pretend to be a top 5 player you speak with your coach about these things. You propose solutions. Ibaka can hit the mid range J quite nicely. Lamb/morrow can hit the 3 consistently. Reggie jackson is a decent player. It's not like they are alone with dleaguers.
And it's not like brooks is phil jackson or pop, he is a nobody.
So I am pointing out that westbrook lacks understanding and leadership and that with a better PG these things would be addressed.

Popovich turned Parker into what he is today, after years of yelling and development. Westbrook doesn't have that, he still plays off his instincts and intensity. Kind of unfair to EXPECT him to be some god tier "Pure PG" that always makes the best decisions, isn't it?

fair point, but this only proves my point, that he isn't better at running a team than the other guys on that list. He could be much better but he isn't. We aren't discussing hypotheticals.
IMO westbrook is a superior player to lowry, but lowry runs a team better <- thread topic.

Again, do you expect Wetsbrook to also be the coach and create some amazing offensive system? That aside, even Chris Paul the "Best PG in the league" made some horrible decisions in the playoffs last year and cost his team the series. Nobody is perfect.

everybody makes bad decisions. Westbrook just excells at it. And yes, I expect the PG to talk to the coach about the gameplan and how it can be improved.

All OKC fans are aware of the terrible ISO system, that's nothing new. But why are you singling out Westbrook? He does make some dumb decisions, but so does Durant. They both have issues with turnovers and retarded shots. But as I said, that's on the coach to fix, but there is no discipline from Brooks, just cheerleading from the bench.

dude, you are just proving my point. We are not talking about whatifs, we are talking about reality. Yeah, brooks is a clear negative and westbrook is a great player, but not a great PG.

Agree there, he does take too many 3s. But some of those are also the late in the shotclock hot potato type 3s that he has to take when the team passe shim the ball after a failed play.

talk to the coach to improve the plays. Talk to your teammates in practice to improve plays. Run a PNR with KD with ibaka spacing, if that doesn't work do a loop for durant. If that doesn't work the other side of the floor should have an open shooter.
Also:
Don't pound the ball for 10 second before initiating the offense.
Don't brush off screens
Don't shoot with 12 seconds on the shotclock
Show some composore.

He may gamble at times, but that isn't a huge issue. His man to man defense and rebounding is good enough to make cover that. He showed his defensive prowess in the playoffs, against the best PGs in the West. Obviously it's not a problem if no PG can handle him.

he gambles alot, and it is an issue.
His rebounding is stellar tho, man to man he is ok.
Again we are talking about running a team, not going 1v1. You have durant and ibaka plus some decent pieces, you don't go for 36% USG in the playoffs.

He doesn't do that, instead he pushes the pace to another level and exhausts the opposing PG. It's what makes him so dangerous. He breaks down the defense on his own and opens up the floor for his teammates. That's enough of "controlling the game". He helps his team win regardless of your arbitrary irrelevant concepts.

and how did that work out against the heat?
or against the spurs?
or against the mavs?
or against the grizzlies (even if they won)?
or against any good team.
That is some idiotic logic right there. Trolls gonna troll i guess.
And really? he opens up the floor?? Do you watch the games? He bulldozes in the lane when the offense isn't even set up and pulls up for a ridiculous number of contest long 2s.
LMAO calling my concepts arbitrary. Son, talk to a coach, or read a book about the game, this shit is teached to 4th graders. You are so so clueless

So Wall would somehow devastate the league with worse big men, worse bench, worse shooters? Durant would be the only upgrade and he doesn't need setting up. And did you just call Perkins/Ibaka "ELITE DEFENDERS"? Anyway, I would love to hear more about your delusional hypotheticals but it's obvious you have no idea wtf you are talking about.

ibaka is better than nene and gortat. He is a better rim defender and a MUCH better shooter, which changes the game enormously with its spacing implications.
Durant isn't an upgrade you idiot, he is a fcking MVP level player that almost matches lebron for production. That's an upgrade like a ferrari over pick up truck dumbass.

Perkins is an elite post defender. All metrics show this. He is excellent at what he does and limited in the rest. used properly he is a valuable player. Ibaka is dpoy level player that almost changed the SA vs OKC series with his inside rim protection. That is he altered SAs offensive efficiency alot. If that isn't elite what is?

Again, you are clueless

Yes, "hopefully" his run of bad decisions and bad pacing can once again result in the destruction of elite PGs like Conley, Paul and Tony Parker and a deep playoff run. If only Westbrook played more like Wall, maybe he would be able to destroy those guys AND average a triple double.

Again, basketball isn't 1v1. PGs should try to make the offense as a whole better. Maybe if he'd play more like a PG and not a SG on a team with MVP durant, allstar DPOY ibaka, and some decent roleplayers they'd win a ring. But it's not the case. He'll do great things and then fck it in some way or another.

Because the westbrook we all know and love is an MVP level talent with the brains of 12 year old.

[Graviton]

More delusional ramblings, what ifs and hypotheticals. Here let me present you with actual facts and tangible evidence, not pointless buzzwords and fairy tales.

[GimmeThat]

PG play has got a lot to do with tempo.

[swagga]

More delusional ramblings, what ifs and hypotheticals. Here let me present you with actual facts and tangible evidence, not pointless buzzwords and fairy tales.

you dumbfck I'm not saying wall and lowry are better players than westbrook. I'm arguing that they run a team better and that they might be better for OKC overall, given that OKC already has alot of talent.

I hope you get it now it inbred hick. lol resorting to per to prove pg play put the meth pipe down son.

[imdaman99]

Bro, you a Knicks fan? So am I and I'd kill for a PG of his caliber. He is a bully and usually dominates the other PG. Just think, PGs would no longer look forward to playing the Knicks anymore so they can set career highs... they would dread it.

He does not play the typical PG position but he is effective with Durant. Is it the perfect duo? No, at least not until they win a chip. I don't think they lose to any team they were favored against IF HEALTHY come playoff time. I don't count them being favorites against Miami in '12 since how often does a team full of 22 year olds win rings?