Put prime Hakeem in Bill Russell's era

[jlauber]

...and Moses Malone gave Kareem the business in the 83 Finals. No one thinks Moses was quite as good as Hakeem.

...and Kareems Bucks DID beat Wilts Lakers in the playoffs.

See how those comparisons DONT work.

First of all, Moses has a case over Hakeem. More MVP's, and more dominant single seasons. Furthermore, Moses was 27 in '83, while Kareem was 35.

Secondly, what does TEAM play have to do with INDIVDUAL play? BTW, in that series in which Kareem's BUCKs beat Wilt's LAKERs, Chamberlain was without BOTH West and Baylor. The 23 year old Kareem, was in arguably his greatest statistical season (including post-season play), ... while the 34 year old Wilt, who was a year removed from major knee surgery, was way his past prime, and was in arguably his WORST season. How did their H2H go? Kareem outscored Wilt in that playoff series, per game 25-22; while Wilt ourebounded Kareem, per game, 19-17; and Chamberlain outshot Kareem in that series, .489 to .481.

And only a complete fool would claim that THAT Wilt was anywhere NEAR his prime.

[L.Kizzle]

Nigerian basketball player in America in the mid 1950s'.

[jlip]

Nigerian basketball player in America in the mid 1950s'.

LOL...I was actually going to post something similar to this.

[jlauber]

...and Moses Malone gave Kareem the business in the 83 Finals. No one thinks Moses was quite as good as Hakeem.

...and Kareems Bucks DID beat Wilts Lakers in the playoffs.

See how those comparisons DONT work.

Maybe you can answer my previous post, then...

Give me a list of all of the NBA players who were better at age 38, than at age 23.

BTW, for every ONE that you MIGHT find (and it won't be much more than that), I can find HUNDREDS of NBA players that did not even make it to age 38.

[eliteballer]

Setting aside the fact that Kareem is the exception to just about any age related rule....

Anything can happen in a regular season game.

Scrubs have had good games against Kobe and Jordan. It happens. You cant make a translation across a 20 year timespan. Especially when the game changed THAT much.

He got owned by Hakeem and Sampson in the 86 playoffs.

A seasoned vet is going to be able to get his vs Rookies. You're talking years of experience and skill sharpening. That sky hook is going in whether he's 25 or 45.


I think Wilt would be able to play now. He'd be a star too. There just arent tha many 6-10+ players capable of playing the game at a decent level(now or ever) for him not to. He's not averaging 50 and 25 though. Or better numbers than Shaq did. No tall tales are going to change that

You want to explain to me how Wilt lost in 61 with homecourt advantage to a 38 win team starting a 6-9 center while shooting below 50%?

You want to explain to me why he only averaged over 24 a game twice after they widened the lane?

[jlauber]

Setting aside the fact that Kareem is the exception to just about any age related rule....

Anything can happen in a regular season game.

Scrubs have had good games against Kobe and Jordan. It happens. You cant make a translation across a 20 year timespan. Especially when the game changed THAT much.

He got owned by Hakeem and Sampson in the 86 playoffs.

A seasoned vet is going to be able to get his vs Rookies. You're talking years of experience and skill sharpening. That sky hook is going in whether he's 25 or 45.


I think Wilt would be able to play now. He'd be a star too. There just arent tha many 6-10+ players capable of playing the game at a decent level(now or ever) for him not to. He's not averaging 50 and 25 though. Or better numbers than Shaq did. No tall tales are going to change that

You want to explain to me how Wilt lost in 61 with homecourt advantage to a 38 win team starting a 6-9 center while shooting below 50%?

You want to explain to me why he only averaged over 24 a game twice after they widened the lane?

Kareem's overwhelming obliteration of Hakeem in the '86 regular season occurred over FIVE straight H2H games. Not only that, but he had a known 40 point game against Hakeem in the '85 season, as well.

And no, Kareem was NOT the exception to the rule. He was NOWHERE near the player that he was in '71, and at age 23. He played 40 mpg in '71... 33 in '86. He LED the NBA in scoring at age 23, at 31.7 ppg...while he was at 23.4 ppg in '86. . He shot .577 in '71, in a league that shot .449 (by contrast, even with far fewer attempts in '86, he shot .564 in a league that shot .487.) He grabbed 16 rpg in '71... 6 in '86. BTW, he WON the MVP award in '71, and then capped it off with a FMVP.

Kareem got OWNED in the '86 WCF's? Hmmm... 27 ppg and games of 33 and 31 points. Here again...the man was 38 years old! AND, given the fact that this 38 year old could hang 40 and 46 point (on 21-30 shooting and in only 37 minutes) games on HAKEEM...just what would a 23 year old Kareem have bombed him with? 60-70 point games?

As for Wilt in '61...he only averaged 37 ppg, with 23 rpg and shooting .469 in a league that shot .415...or WAY over the league average. How did his opposing center, multiple all-star Red Kerr fare? I really don't have his numbers from that series, but in his 8 playoff games, he averaged 9.5 ppg, 12.4 rpg, and shot .341. Oh, and BTW, we do KNOW how Kerr fared against Wilt in the '60 and '62 playoffs. In '60, he averaged 13.7 ppg, 8.3 rpg...and shot, get this... .294 from the floor. In the '62 playoffs against Wilt, he 17.6, 16.0 rpg, and shot .376 (while Wilt was hanging a 37 ppg 24 rpg .466 series against him....including a 56 point, 35 rebound clinching game five performance.)

Oh, and how did Wilt's TEAMMATES shoot in that '61 series? .380.

BTW, how about a 27 year old Hakeem in the '89-90 playoffs? 18.5 ppg on .443 shooting in...yet ANOTHER FIRST ROUND EXIT. So, while you can find ONE playoff series in which Wilt did not make it past the first round (and in which he hung a 37-23 series), I can find EIGHT in Hakeem's career.

[UltimaFX]

Weren't there only like 4 players over 6'8 in the days of Russel and Wilt?

[jlauber]

Weren't there only like 4 players over 6'8 in the days of Russel and Wilt?

Nope. None. Not even Russell and Wilt were over 6-8. The league was filled with six-footers who were released on weekends from their local rest homes to play half-court games on eight-foot peach-baskets, where they stood around shooting set-shots, and rebounds were pulled up from the floor.

[Mr Know It All]

jesus, you don't even try to think about it. You just read stats and make conclusions.
Thats why i can't take you seriously.
Hakeem faced experienced, big and skilled competition. First he had to Learn the game befor becoming a force.
Kareem entering the league in 1969 being a athletic GIANT dude, was an instant dominant force in the Basketball world.
This fact alone destroyes your conclusion of "wilt > rookie Kareem = wilt > olajuwon beacause kareem > rookie olajuwon".
WTF is that? Do you read this shit yourself? That makes no sense at all.

You jerking off all night watching those stats on nba reference never made you think why kareem, who made significant improvements over his whole career, put up those kind of numbers in his first years and than just stays the same or even get worse?

And what has a 23 year old Kareem being the better player against a 38 year old Hakeem to do with anything? Its a fact that Olajuwon declined faster. So what? I said Hakeem > Wilt and what you do is showing me how much better Kareem was. Did i say that i think Kareem > wilt?

I bet if a big extreme rare athletic hakeem would have played in the 40s, and dominate wilt in his rookie year without any footage and only watched live, you would make the same retarded conclusion and call Hakeem the best center ever.

I have nothing to add to this discussion, just like to point out how moronic this post is, it's really hilarious. I love how people berate jlauber around here but all the guy does is come up with hard stats and data to support his claims (something very few people here are able to do), and if you actually read them they are thought out and make a hell of a lot of sense.

People like you just cannot accept that the era of Wilt and Russell deserve respect, and stats like the ones jlauber brings forth prove that. The ONLY way we can argue about how these guys would play against each other is by analyzing the transitioning into each era. I was converted into a firm Wilt supporter (That is, that he is the greatest and most dominant player of all time), when I became aware of his play against Kareem in the twilight of Wilt's career.

I'll continue to smile at these arguments though. Jlauber will keep destroying morons like you with hard facts, and you will come back with weak trash like "I bet if so and so played then he would dominate", which proves nothing and only puts forth your own bullshit opinion. If you want to participate in an argument like this, you need facts and not reckless speculation, you sound like a child. I'd hate to see some of these people write an essay.

[Rooster]

Weren't there only like 4 players over 6'8 in the days of Russel and Wilt?

There were a couple of players who are 6'10 I think and Wilt was the only 7 footer.

[Kblaze8855]

Wilt was not the only 7 footer. Or the first one. Or the tallest.

[jlauber]

Weren't there only like 4 players over 6'8 in the days of Russel and Wilt?

How tall were the players that Russell battled back in the 50's at USF?

http://www.usfdons.com/sports/m-bask...101999aab.html

In the meantime, with Mullen out, Oregon State had sagged its defense around Bill Russell, not only with the 7'3" Swede Halbrook, but also with the 7'0" Phil Shadoin, virtually ignoring forward Stan Buchanan. In response to his teammates' urging to shoot from long range, Buchanan drilled consecutive twenty footers, forcing the Beavers to adjust their strategy and play all the USF players straight up. What followed is one of the most incredible games in NCAA annals. Darrell Wilson of the Chronicle reported: "The game's big men--7'3" Swede Halbrook and 6'10" Bill Russell from USF--fought it out around the backboard in a leap-for-leap battle in a higher area than most basketball fans have ever witnessed."

[millwad]

Kareem's overwhelming obliteration of Hakeem in the '86 regular season occurred over FIVE straight H2H games. Not only that, but he had a known 40 point game against Hakeem in the '85 season, as well.


Kareem got OWNED in the '86 WCF's? Hmmm... 27 ppg and games of 33 and 31 points. Here again...the man was 38 years old! AND, given the fact that this 38 year old could hang 40 and 46 point (on 21-30 shooting and in only 37 minutes) games on HAKEEM...just what would a 23 year old Kareem have bombed him with? 60-70 point games?

You only prove that you're an idiot time after time..

First of all, you haven't even seen the series and obviously you didn't read the article I sent you and I can give you plenty more if you'd like so if you wanna play the game you always do. Kareem and the Lakers got trashed by Akeem..

And you know what's funny, according to you Wilt "crushed" and "schooled" Kareem in '72 when Kareem averaged 40 points on 50% shooting on Wilt in the regular season over 5 games. We NEVER see you trash Wilt over that even though he was in defensive prime according to MANY.

Like that wasn't enough, Wilt later got outscored with 23 points per game in the playoffs while shooting a worse FG% than what Kareem did... And still Kareem got "schooled" and "crushed"..

Don't you understand how biased and stupid you are? First you act like the regular season games of 1972 never occured and then you act like Wilt "crushed" Kareem in the playoffs because you don't know the meaning of "decisively" and then when it comes to Hakeem you see it in a completely other way.

So lets break it down, Jlauber sees Kareem's total domination of Wilt as Wilt schooling Kareem. In this case stats doesn't matter even though Kareem averaged 40 points on Wilt on 50% over 5 regular season games and then outscoring him with 23 points per game on better FG%.

When it comes to Hakeem the same old fart ALWAYS spams about Kareem scoring big vs rookie and 2nd year pro Olajuwon but he never mentions how Akeem absolutely trashed the Laker big guys in the 1986 playoffs. And he didn't see the series, he only checked basketball-reference, that's why he only talks about stats. Everyone knows how Olajuwon totally destroyed the Lakers that year.

BTW, how about a 27 year old Hakeem in the '89-90 playoffs? 18.5 ppg on .443 shooting in...yet ANOTHER FIRST ROUND EXIT. So, while you can find ONE playoff series in which Wilt did not make it past the first round (and in which he hung a 37-23 series), I can find EIGHT in Hakeem's career.

Stupid argument, Wilt played with way better players in his career and Wilt had the luxury to face 3 teams in the playoffs in the first round that even didn't manage to win 40 games that actual season...

And you always talk about first round exits but you never tell us what years Hakeem should have led his team realistically out of the first round during his career. Consider the guys he played with those years and tell me now what years he should have led his team much further.. That's something you never will be able to do since you haven't even seen the guy play.

And still, Hakeem in the playoffs both had a higher points per game average and he also shot with a better FG% than Wilt, and he also was a way better scorer if you wanna compare the two seasons he won compared to the two seasons Wilt won. Wilt in '72 didn't even average over 14 pathetic points.. Remove his all-stars and HOF:ersthat year and give him a roster like Hakeem had in '94 and he'd be a one time champion..

[millwad]

How tall were the players that Russell battled back in the 50's at USF?

http://www.usfdons.com/sports/m-bask...101999aab.html

You spam about Swede Halbrook crazy much considering that the guy only played in the league 2 years while only being able to average 5.5 points on 34% shooting while your beloved big guy only averaged 6.6 rebounds per game..

Couldn't you find a better scrub?

[Kblaze8855]

Walter dukes is a better choice. But there were quite a few big guys from back then nobody remembers.