I think MJ is underrated defensively on this board...

[3ball]

..

[SHAQisGOAT]

MJ is not underrated as a defender at all. Lebron backs down PG and Kawhi whenever they are 1-on-1 in the post but several people here think that he wouldn't be able to back down MJ in the post. This just proves that if anything at least ppl here overrate his defense. He was a great defender on guards but he couldn't guard magic....how will he guard lebron?

Yea, MJ got murked when trying to guard Magic or Bird in the post, because of their size, skill and smarts... Jordan's still one of the greatest defensive SG's (well, perimeter defenders in general) ever, and LeBron might be bigger and more athletic than Magic but he sure as hell doesn't have the as good of a post-game... but you wouldn't know nothing about that.

[oarabbus]

Weak wing players??.. The lists below show that SG's and SF's from 1990 (just that season alone) match the cast of 2014 SG's and SF's player-for-player.



SG's and SF's With At Least a 15 PER - one season (2014) versus one season (1990)


[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR]2014 SG's[COLOR="White"]...............................[/COLOR]1990 SG's

James Harden*.................... Michael Jordan*
Dwayne Wade*.................... Clyde Drexler*
Manu Ginobili*..................... Mitch Richmond*
Joe Johnson......................... Joe Dumars*
Demar Derozan.................... Reggie Miller*
Klay Thompson.................... Ron Harper
Jamal Crawford.................... Fat Lever
Aaron Afflalo........................ Alvin Robertson
Nick Young.......................... Dale Ellis
JJ Redick..............................Ricky Pierce
Kevin Martin........................ Hersey Hawkins
Wesley Matthews................. Jeff Hornacek
Gerald Green....................... Ronaldo Blackmon



[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR]2014 SF's[COLOR="White"]..............................[/COLOR]1990 SF's

Lebron James*...................... Larry Bird*
Kevin Durant*....................... Dominique Wilkins*
Carmelo Anthony*................. Scottie Pippen*
Paul George.......................... James Worthy*
Gordon Hayward................... Chris Mullin*
Kawhi Leonard...................... Bernard King*
Trevor Ariza.......................... Alex English*
Andre Iguodala..................... Adrian Dantley*
Nicholas Batum..................... Derrick McKey
Luol Deng............................. Reggie Lewis
Josh Smith........................... Orlando Woolridge
Chandler Parsons.................. Mark Aguirre
Rudy Gay............................. Jerome Kersey

HOF (*)


As you can see, the 2014 lists are comprised of more role players and play-finishers, as opposed to the list for the 1990 season that had more play-creating, All-NBA players and Hall-of-Famers.

Not this chart again, 3ball is a prropaganda master.

Do yourselves a favor and look up the actual stats for the year 1990 for those guys. Many were role players in 1990s. 3Ball wants to construct an argument where you hear these big names and think of them in their primes. That's not the case.


Anyway, no disagreements about Jordan's defensive prowess. He was incredible defensively.

[3ball]

SG's and SF's With At Least a 15 PER - one season (2014) versus one season (1990)


[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR]2014 SG's[COLOR="White"]...............................[/COLOR]1990 SG's

James Harden*.................... Michael Jordan*
Dwayne Wade*.................... Clyde Drexler*
Manu Ginobili*..................... Mitch Richmond*
Joe Johnson......................... Joe Dumars*
Demar Derozan.................... Reggie Miller*
Klay Thompson.................... Ron Harper
Jamal Crawford.................... Fat Lever
Aaron Afflalo........................ Alvin Robertson
Nick Young.......................... Dale Ellis
JJ Redick..............................Ricky Pierce
Kevin Martin........................ Hersey Hawkins
Wesley Matthews................. Jeff Hornacek
Gerald Green....................... Ronaldo Blackmon



[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR]2014 SF's[COLOR="White"]..............................[/COLOR]1990 SF's

Lebron James*...................... Larry Bird*
Kevin Durant*....................... Dominique Wilkins*
Carmelo Anthony*................. Scottie Pippen*
Paul George.......................... James Worthy*
Gordon Hayward................... Chris Mullin*
Kawhi Leonard...................... Bernard King*
Trevor Ariza.......................... Alex English*
Andre Iguodala..................... Adrian Dantley*
Nicholas Batum..................... Derrick McKey
Luol Deng............................. Reggie Lewis
Josh Smith........................... Orlando Woolridge
Chandler Parsons.................. Mark Aguirre
Rudy Gay............................. Jerome Kersey

HOF (*)

3Ball wants to construct an argument where you hear these big names and think of them in their primes. That's not the case.

I'm guessing you decided to lie because you were too lazy to look up the players yourself.... Guys in 1990 weren't in their prime???... So why did the 1990 SF's have more All-Stars than 2014?.. Blatant proof that you are biased and disingenuous.

The 2014 SF's only had 4 All-Stars (including the inactive Paul George, who should be removed from the list), compared to 5 for 1990 SF's (Larry Bird, Dominique, Pippen, Worthy, and Mullin were All-Stars in 1990).

So what are you complaining about guys not being in their prime?.. 1990 has FIVE current All-Stars to go with their 8 HOF's.

Also, it's clear the 2014 list of SF's is comprised of 100% play-finishing role players from the 5th spot on down the list, whereas the 1990 group has a higher proportion of play-creators.

Guys like Kawhi averaged 12.8 ppg... Iggy 9.3... Hayward 16.2... Ariza 14.4... Josh Smith 16.4... Parsons 16.0... Deng 14.3.... 1990 had role players like this too, but not as many... and as previously mentioned, 1990 had more all-stars and play-creators.

While the 1990 SF's have an edge on 2014 SF's, let's not even talk about the SG comparison, where 1990 destroys the talentless 2014 bunch.. 1990 SG's blow out 2014 like the Spurs doing Miami....

Unless you WANT to discuss the SG's.. because I have no problem with it - do you want to discuss the SG's too?
.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Top 7 defensive guard and perimeter defender ever

[T_L_P]

Top 7 defensive guard

-Moncrief
-Payton

Who else ya got?

[SHAQisGOAT]

-Moncrief
-Payton

Who else ya got?

I'll probably say the very best are (no particular order):

Moncrief
Payton
Jordan
Cooper
Frazier
DJ


then you got Dumars, West, Kobe, Kidd, Cheeks, Sloan, so on...

[c5terror]

But can he guard all 5 positions?

LOL lebron can't guard all position, he's getting murdered by barrea, marion, terry, parker, leonard, mills. he can't guard a role player LOL

[c5terror]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4gigN2zMU4

MJ 9mins defensive highlights...MJ>>>>>>>>Lebron defensively Not even close

[Rose'sACL]

Yea, MJ got murked when trying to guard Magic or Bird in the post, because of their size, skill and smarts... Jordan's still one of the greatest defensive SG's (well, perimeter defenders in general) ever, and LeBron might be bigger and more athletic than Magic but he sure as hell doesn't have the as good of a post-game... but you wouldn't know nothing about that.

I don't need to know any better. He would just overpower mj in the post. What other skill would he need?
Stop being so butthurt that there are younger guys who are smarter than you.

[andgar923]

Just imagine how much better he'd be if he wasn't carrying the offensive load?

It takes a toll getting constantly doubled and triple teamed.

Btw.... MJ was still the Bulls' best defender. He was the Bulls' go to stopper when it was needed. He also played more man to man then Pip did. Pip was used more as a free safety due to his length, while MJ had to chase people around screens all game.

[kshutts1]

..

Thanks for this post, 3ball.

When I think of Jordan, I think of the top play.

Even if/when he messes up... look how hard he tried to make it right. Jordan literally would not quit.

Aside from all the things I've read that showed how Jordan kept track of his own stats throughout the game, I really don't think he ever noticed the scoreboard. Whether up 50 or down 50, 10 seconds left or 10 minutes left, you couldn't tell by watching him.

There are not many wing players that are in my first tier, but he's one of the two (oscar being the other) for a reason.

[fpliii]

[G0ATbe]

[DonDadda59]

From watching live and going back to look at tape, the guy never slacked off, and didn't really try to save energy by giving less than 100% effort. We're getting more and more data from the 90s, and the on/off numbers seem to paint him as a legitimately dominant player on that end.

A lot of star players are named to all-defensive teams on the basis of reputation, but Jordan's selections were pretty well-deserved. At the time (started watching during the last year of the first threepeat) I'd always thought Scottie was better defensively, but going back now I'm not sure that's the case. During the second threepeat it's pretty close, but from watching more and more of peak MJ, I think he was the superior man and help defender in his prime.

Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but I just wanted to give the dude his due.

No, this is all legitimately new information.