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Old 10-17-2018, 08:37 PM   #451
sdot_thadon
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen was the 2nd best player of the 90's

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Originally Posted by SamuraiSWISH
No, just no.

David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwon were both easily better two way players. Gary Payton from the mid to late 90s having an argument being better than Scottie in that regard as well, due to his superior offensive capabilities.

As many of us who actually watched the 1990s can explain, as I did earlier in the thread ... Scottie isn’t even definitively the best small forward of the decade. Let alone the second best perimeter player.

Early 1990s, Magic Johnson, Clyde Drexler, Dominique Wilkins and Isiah Thomas were superior. Mid 90’s (IE ‘94 and ‘95) are Scottie’s. But the late 90s it was Penny, Grant Hill, as the best perimeter players after Jordan.

Who TF are you kidding.
oh look coach is here, the resident scottie pippen expert let's agree to keep the convo above the waist sir?

The 90s= a 10 year stretch, what sf or perimter player put up a better combination of stats, accolades, and team success across the 90s sir. tell me what wings have more all nba selections or mvp vote shares in the 90s? all defensive? I said dream was easily 2nd best, and i wouldn't argue with the admiral either. My whole point was Pip isn't what "you people" and you know who you are, make him out to be. He was a perennial allstar, that sometimes played like a superstar. period.
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Old 10-17-2018, 09:26 PM   #452
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen was the 2nd best player of the 90's

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Originally Posted by CAstill
The revisionist history here is horrible. 10 players better than Pippen during the 90’s not to be confused with who had a better career.

1. Jordan
2. Hakeem
3. Barkley
4. Malone
5. Kemp
6. Ewing
7. Shaq
8. Penny
9. Stockton
10. Clyde

There was players like Hill, Richmond, Mullins, even Webber was considered better. AI and Kobe were better than Pippen ever was by the 99-00 season. I don’t even know if he’s even better than Larry Johnson, Payton, or Reggie. Pippen has became super overrated. He was a perfect number 2 option but that is not be valued over a player capable of being number one. I doubt I’d even put him over early Garnett
Yet you picked the player that broke down as soonest he became a first option.
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Old 10-17-2018, 11:02 PM   #453
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen was the 2nd best player of the 90's

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Originally Posted by bigkingsfan
Yet you picked the player that broke down as soonest he became a first option.

Yeah I also picked the player who was considered better in the 90’s. No one back then had Pippen over Penny. Pippen wasn’t even better than David Robinson. Pippen mentally broke down his first post season without Jordan
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Old 10-17-2018, 11:06 PM   #454
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen was the 2nd best player of the 90's

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Originally Posted by sdot_thadon
oh look coach is here, the resident scottie pippen expert let's agree to keep the convo above the waist sir?

The 90s= a 10 year stretch, what sf or perimter player put up a better combination of stats, accolades, and team success across the 90s sir. tell me what wings have more all nba selections or mvp vote shares in the 90s? all defensive? I said dream was easily 2nd best, and i wouldn't argue with the admiral either. My whole point was Pip isn't what "you people" and you know who you are, make him out to be. He was a perennial allstar, that sometimes played like a superstar. period.


You’re talking about who ended up having the best career during that ten year stretch while the topic is about who was considered the better player during the 90’s. Pippens career was better than Malone’s doesn’t mean he was the better player lol
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Old 10-18-2018, 01:47 AM   #455
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen was the 2nd best player of the 90's

Pippen sacrificed stats in order to be the 2nd option. He was not a top 2 player he was more like a top 10 player. Still pretty good for an era with alot of superstars. Robinson was better than Pippen though.

Last edited by Round Mound : 10-18-2018 at 03:04 AM.
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Old 10-18-2018, 02:44 AM   #456
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen was the 2nd best player of the 90's

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Originally Posted by CAstill
Yeah I also picked the player who was considered better in the 90’s. No one back then had Pippen over Penny. Pippen wasn’t even better than David Robinson. Pippen mentally broke down his first post season without Jordan
Penny couldn't even get out of the first round.

How was he considered better again? Pippen without Mike was a first team all NBA and defensive first team, 3rd in MVP voting, all star game game MVP. That's much better than Penny has ever accomplished.
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Old 10-18-2018, 03:06 AM   #457
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen was the 2nd best player of the 90's

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Originally Posted by bigkingsfan
Penny couldn't even get out of the first round.

How was he considered better again? Pippen without Mike was a first team all NBA and defensive first team, 3rd in MVP voting, all star game game MVP. That's much better than Penny has ever accomplished.

Top 4 in PER and 7th in DRT (as a SF)
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Old 10-18-2018, 05:17 AM   #458
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen was the 2nd best player of the 90's

Ok we all agree he was great just not 2nd best of an entire decade. He was a “superstar complementary player” to quote Jack McCallum. Never a franchise guy. I don’t know how I feel about Isiah excluded from the Dream team but he’d burned too many bridges over the years with his peers. Jordan was adamant he wouldn’t be on the team if the committee selected Isiah. Even his old friends like Magic didn’t want him on the team. So glad I got to watch the greatest team of all time. That was a great olympics at Barcelona. It was funny watching Jordan do Big Mac commercials around that time cuz he’d always barely be able to fit his big ole hands around this massive burger lol. We’d all laugh cuz we knew the burger wasn’t that big and here’s Michael Jordan and he can barely hold onto it. Lol
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Old 10-18-2018, 08:20 AM   #459
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen was the 2nd best player of the 90's

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Originally Posted by sdot_thadon
He'd be top 10 for sure but you're right as a clyde fan he did always look at the ball dribbling. He'd get so much flack for that nowdays that every piece of fundamental is criticized. Imagine if Kd couldn't dribble without looking at the ball.....

On topic though Scottie wasn't the 2nd best player of the 90s, I'd give that to Hakeem without thinking twice. However that doesn't take away the fact that at times, especially during the 2nd 3peat he had an argument for it from time to time. I personally remember people saying the bulls had the best and 2nd best players in the league during the 2nd 3peat. Media hyperbole? sure, perhaps. But where theres smoke theres fire, so that means he was likely way better than the under rating he's given by Mj fans.

From my memory( if it's faulty, blame the rum over the years), Pippen came out of the gates hot in 96. If there was EVER( incorrect in hindsight) *some* discussion that Pip was second best it was in 96 before he got injured. MJ was even promoting a 'Scottie' for MVP' campaign, and it was easy enough to see because he was playing in that 94-95 mode BUT with MJ alongside him motivated and primed to erase the failure of the 95 playoffs. The Bulls played glorious ball that year, both in terms of allowing individual shine( MJ and Pip, Rodman with his rebounding and crazy antics) while facilitating beautiful TEAM ball. The next team to give me that same feeling was the 2016 Warriors in the regular season. Staying on topic, 96 was in a bit of flux anyways: MJ was (re)establishing himself, and I recall specifically some early games where the media( guys like Matt Goukas, for example) were calling Penny 'the leagues' best player'. Because he was balling too carrying the Magic early in the season while Shaq was nursing injuries. In reality it was MJ, Malone and probably Shaq as your top 3. Barkley was diminishing from injuries. Admiral was injured in 96/97. Hakeem was on the back-nine of his prime. After that, you could have argued for a few players in that 96-98 period: Penny, Hill, Payton, Scottie. No-one really separated themselves from the pack outside of Jordan, Malone and Shaq.

Last edited by Phoenix : 10-18-2018 at 08:31 AM.
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Old 10-18-2018, 11:16 AM   #460
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen was the 2nd best player of the 90's

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Originally Posted by Phoenix
From my memory( if it's faulty, blame the rum over the years), Pippen came out of the gates hot in 96. If there was EVER( incorrect in hindsight) *some* discussion that Pip was second best it was in 96 before he got injured. MJ was even promoting a 'Scottie' for MVP' campaign, and it was easy enough to see because he was playing in that 94-95 mode BUT with MJ alongside him motivated and primed to erase the failure of the 95 playoffs. The Bulls played glorious ball that year, both in terms of allowing individual shine( MJ and Pip, Rodman with his rebounding and crazy antics) while facilitating beautiful TEAM ball. The next team to give me that same feeling was the 2016 Warriors in the regular season. Staying on topic, 96 was in a bit of flux anyways: MJ was (re)establishing himself, and I recall specifically some early games where the media( guys like Matt Goukas, for example) were calling Penny 'the leagues' best player'. Because he was balling too carrying the Magic early in the season while Shaq was nursing injuries. In reality it was MJ, Malone and probably Shaq as your top 3. Barkley was diminishing from injuries. Admiral was injured in 96/97. Hakeem was on the back-nine of his prime. After that, you could have argued for a few players in that 96-98 period: Penny, Hill, Payton, Scottie. No-one really separated themselves from the pack outside of Jordan, Malone and Shaq.
You remember correctly, rum and all.

Scottie did come out hot in the 1996 run. He was playing on levels similar to his 1994 and 1995 peak runs. Only this time, with Jordan by his side. But somewhere around mid season, the cream rose to the top, Jordan pulled away from Scottie as the clear-cut best player on the team. As Michael clearly was trying to be gracious from the out set to it being “Scottie’s Team” and re-integrating his Alpha dominance slowly over the team after his ‘95 come back.

And somewhere around spring of the ‘96 season ... I don’t know if due to injury or not, but Pip started a slight decline. Or just came back to earth a little. Maybe due to lingering injuries? Who knows.

It was the next year when he pulled his back on the dunk vs Washington in game 3 of the first round of the playoffs, that he essentially was never the same again on offense. And he was almost strictly just a really elite quality defensive player exclusively.

Scoring only 18 points per game on 41% shooting is absolutely ****ing atrocious. No matter how you cut it. Even worse when taking into account the defense isn’t even focused on you ...

And has no grounds to be the second best perimeter player in the game, let alone the second best player in the game LOL mid 30s MJ was carrying THAT as his next best player to a second three peat.

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Old 10-18-2018, 11:26 AM   #461
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen was the 2nd best player of the 90's

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Originally Posted by SamuraiSWISH
You remember correctly, rum and all.

Scottie did come out hot in the 1996 run. He was playing on levels similar to his 1994 and 1995 peak runs. Only this time, with Jordan by his side. But somewhere around mid season, the cream rose to the top, Jordan pulled away from Scottie as the clear-cut best player on the team. As Michael clearly was trying to be gracious from the out set to it being “Scottie’s Team” and re-integrating his Alpha dominance slowly over the team after his ‘95 come back.

And somewhere around spring of the ‘96 season ... I don’t know if due to injury or not, but Pip started a slight decline. Or just came back to earth a little. Maybe due to lingering injuries? Who knows.

It was the next year when he pulled his back on the dunk vs Washington in game 3 of the first round of the playoffs, that he essentially was never the same again on offense. And he was almost strictly just a really elite quality defensive player exclusively.

Scoring only 18 points per game on 41% shooting is absolutely ****ing atrocious. No matter how you cut it. Even worse when taking into account the defense isn’t even focused on you ...

And has no grounds to be the second best perimeter player in the game, let alone the second best player in the game LOL mid 30s MJ was carrying THAT as his next best player to a second three peat.


Yep, as hard as it is to fathom if Pip had maintained his early 96 form for the entire year, and close enough to it in 97 and 98 on 'both sides' of the ball, that team could have potentially been even better than it was. People remember that the Bulls won 72 in 96 but forget that they won 69 the following year with Rodman missing 27 games and Kukoc 25, then 62 in 98 with Scottie missing 47( which is an underrated carry job by MJ at the very tailend of his prime).
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Old 10-18-2018, 11:54 AM   #462
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen was the 2nd best player of the 90's

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Originally Posted by Phoenix
Yep, as hard as it is to fathom if Pip had maintained his early 96 form for the entire year, and close enough to it in 97 and 98 on 'both sides' of the ball, that team could have potentially been even better than it was. People remember that the Bulls won 72 in 96 but forget that they won 69 the following year with Rodman missing 27 games and Kukoc 25, then 62 in 98 with Scottie missing 47( which is an underrated carry job by MJ at the very tailend of his prime).
Exactly.

Well that’s why he was MVP even at 35 over Shaq. He missed Pippen for half the season yet they still won 60 games.

Not to mention of the 10 losses in 1996, the vast majority of them came within a point or two. If the Bulls wanted they very easily could’ve won 75+ that year.

I am still utterly convinced that 1994 team, had Jordan not gone to play baseball, that would’ve been the 1996 team on steroids. Maybe not out of motivation. But just absurd talent.

Michael would’ve been in the second to last season of his physical prime at 31 years old. Just extrapolate what he did in the 1993 season as a barometer.

Because if you look at it, Jordans 1995 playoffs after coming back from baseball, and being rusty is kind of underrated. He still played like how he did from 1988 to 1993. And I think that’s part of the reason why he didn’t have gas late in games. There was games vs the Magic where he scored 30 some odd first half points. And then was gassed late in the game and couldn’t finish. Because his arsenal was primarily predicated on explosive drives to the basket attacking Shaquille and Horace in the middle. With mid range jumpers sprinkled in.

Where as in 1996 forward he worked out of the post first as a means to conserve energy with age, allowing him to still play elite defense and sprinkled everything else in to keep the defense honest offensively.

That hypothetical 1994 team would’ve saw Scotty Pippen at his absolute peak. Horace Grant at his absolute peak. BJ Armstrong at his absolute peak. All playing for contracts and new money.

And I always preferred Horace over Dennis Rodman. Not just because I affiliated him with the enemy Bad Boys but for what both brought to the table. For as great as Dennis was in 1996, which was fairly consistently. His one mindedness defensively just to stack rebounds at times actually hurt the team. And he obviously was nonexistent offensively. And let’s not even take inti account 1997 and 1998 where he often would go AWOL, kicking cameramen, getting suspended. He was just beginning to be too mentally unhinged in those last two seasons with the Bulls to be heavily relied upon. That’s why Bison Dele free agency acquisition and Caffey became so oddly important to them.

Where is Horace, was it consistent and more even temperament. Was a perfect third option both offensively and defensively. He was longer, and actually a better shot blocker than Dennis Rodman. And he was an awesome offensive rebounder. But unlike Dennis he had a smooth jumper and could knock down wide open mid range when needed.

Then you throw in the offensive shooting fire power of Kukoc, Kerr off the bench? That ‘94 Bulls with still prime Jordan would be terrifying.

As we saw, they went to the second round of the playoffs and pushed the runner-up team to seven games. With Jordan? The Knicks and the Rockets wouldn’t have stood a snowballs chance in hell.

Last edited by SamuraiSWISH : 10-18-2018 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 10-18-2018, 12:19 PM   #463
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen was the 2nd best player of the 90's

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Originally Posted by SamuraiSWISH
Exactly.

Well that’s why he was MVP even at 35 over Shaq. He missed Pippen for half the season yet they still won 60 games.

Not to mention of the 10 losses in 1996, the vast majority of them came within a point or two. If the Bulls wanted they very easily could’ve won 75+ that year.

I am still utterly convinced that 1994 team, had Jordan not gone to play baseball, that would’ve been the 1996 team on steroids. Maybe not out of motivation. But just absurd talent.

Michael would’ve been in the second to last season of his physical prime at 31 years old. Just extrapolate what he did in the 1993 season as a barometer.

Because if you look at it, Jordans 1995 playoffs after coming back from baseball, and being rusty is kind of underrated. He still played like how he did from 1988 to 1993. And I think that’s part of the reason why he didn’t have gas late in games. There was games vs the Magic where he scored 30 some odd first half points. And then was gassed late in the game and couldn’t finish. Because his arsenal was primarily predicated on explosive drives to the basket attacking Shaquille and Horace in the middle. With mid range jumpers sprinkled in.

Where as in 1996 forward he worked out of the post first as a means to conserve energy with age, allowing him to still play elite defense and sprinkled everything else in to keep the defense honest offensively.

That hypothetical 1994 team would’ve saw Scotty Pippen at his absolute peak. Horace Grant at his absolute peak. BJ Armstrong at his absolute peak. All playing for contracts and new money.

And I always preferred Horace over Dennis Rodman. Not just because I affiliated him with the enemy Bad Boys but for what both brought to the table. For as great as Dennis was in 1996, which was fairly consistently. His one mindedness defensively just to stack rebounds at times actually hurt the team. And he obviously was nonexistent offensively. And let’s not even take inti account 1997 and 1998 where he often would go AWOL, kicking cameramen, getting suspended. He was just beginning to be too mentally unhinged in those last two seasons with the Bulls to be heavily relied upon. That’s why Bison Dele free agency acquisition and Caffey became so oddly important to them.

Where is Horace, was it consistent and more even temperament. Was a perfect third option both offensively and defensively. He was longer, and actually a better shot blocker than Dennis Rodman. And he was an awesome offensive rebounder. But unlike Dennis he had a smooth jumper and could knock down wide open mid range when needed.

Then you throw in the offensive shooting fire power of Kukoc, Kerr off the bench? That ‘94 Bulls with still prime Jordan would be terrifying.

As we saw, they went to the second round of the playoffs and pushed the runner-up team to seven games. With Jordan? The Knicks and the Rockets wouldn’t have stood a snowballs chance in hell.

Agree. I've always said that the 94 team *could* have been the best of the Bulls dynasty. Grant and Pippen were 28, with 7 years of grit and championship poise while being at their physical peak as players. BJ had developed into a solid backcourt mate next to MJ. Kukoc off the bench. Something potentially very special was lost by MJ not playing in 94.
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Old 10-18-2018, 05:22 PM   #464
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Default Re: Scottie Pippen was the 2nd best player of the 90's

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When could Draymond do stuff like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMErM4RdGz8

Horace has a solid mid range jumper (much better than Draymonds)
gtfo with that spoonfed buckets bs its pretty clear you don't even watch basketball acting like Grant is some playfinishing role player when in reality he was a borderline superstar


ITT I learned that Pip was better than Hakeem, Malone, DRobinson, Shaq, Barkley, Drexler, Ewing etc and that Grant was a borderline superstar Lol

Funny that living and watching the NBA religiously since the mid 80s, I never felt that Pip was the 2nd best player in the 90s and didn't realize HoGrant was a borderline superstar

This is why very few legit hoop fans take ISH seriously...30 plus pages on this shit thread, really ISH???
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