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  1. #1
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    Default 1997 MVP and best player

    is a crossway tie between shaq AND jordan - these two were utterly dominant that year, leading the league in scoring (1 and 2 respectively) and player efficiency rating (PER). what made shaq's numbers and all-around play special, though, is the guy playing just half of the season AND YET still being able to record these numbers. in the games that he played (51), shaq had 44 double-doubles (not a typo), 8 games of 34 & 10+, and all-around games of 25/18/5/7, 34/10/7/6, 33/11/6/3, 33/13/5/7/2, 32/14/7/3, 18/19/5, 29p/21, 23p/20r. in the playoffs, shaq averaged 27/11/3/2 on 55% TS and 52% FG along with a 29 PER, leading the lakers to the semifinals. unfortunately the lakers were to be had in 5 versus utah (not alot of help from his teammates), but still - an amazing season DESPITE the injuries.

    oth, jordan was the leading scorer for all perimeter players, with two 50 point games, eight games of 40+ points, all-around games of 30/10/11, 19/10/8, 26/14/5, 40/6/6, 45/5/7, 32 & 18. in the playoffs, jordan averaged 31/8/5 on 52%TS and 46%FG in the playoffs along with a 27 PER, helping the bulls win a championship against utah (substantial help from his teammates) - a legendary season to go with a couple iconic moments.

    and finally, the advanced metric, RAPM, which stabilizes individual impact, puts shaq atop of everyone with a 6.3 rating. michael jordan by contrast rated 4.3, just behind his teammate scottie pippen, who had ~4.6 (this goes back to team strength and overall help).

    IMO jordan was definitely the 1997 MVP over malone, as he, unlike shaq, played the entire season while administering near equal productivity. best player for me is shaq, although i can also see arguments being made for jordan (more iconic moments and the hardware to make up for the minimal statistical gap). so once again - jordan for MVP and shaq for BEST player, thus equal.

    game footage:
    shaq - 46p/11r vs blazers, playoffs
    shaq dominating in his first appearance as a laker
    shaq runs the break, spins around defender and dunks
    shaq - 34/11/6/4 vs jazz, playoffs

    jordan - 31/4/8 and game winner vs jazz, 1997 finals

    jordan - 50 points vs heat
    jordan - 55 points vs bullets, playoffs
    jordan - iconic flu game, finals


    edit: 1992 thread coming soon - i might do 1994 and 1995 although those years are mostly unanimous
    Last edited by mehyaM24; 01-12-2015 at 07:05 AM.

  2. #2
    GOAT sportjames23's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1996 MVP and best player

    So, you gonna do 1988 and 1991, also?

  3. #3
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    Default Re: 1996 MVP and best player

    Quote Originally Posted by sportjames23
    So, you gonna do 1988 and 1991, also?
    possibly. most of the years i'm doing aren't so clear-cut.

    94 and 95 should be fun - but the MVP is something i would seriously like to break down. a lot of myths thrown out there that need to be closed.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: 1996 MVP and best player

    Nah, it's clear MJ was the best player in the game all these seasons with all factors considered. He just separates himself too much in the more meaningful, pressure packed parts of the season ... IE, the playoffs, and Finals.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: 1996 MVP and best player

    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiSWISH
    Nah, it's clear MJ was the best player in the game all these seasons with all factors considered. He just separates himself too much in the more meaningful, pressure packed parts of the season ... IE, the playoffs, and Finals.
    objective data and game tape suggest otherwise. jordan should have won MVP, but shaq given what he produced when healthy, was the best player and most impactful.

    i will later list all the seasons i've made threads on, justly validating my claims - e.g. most years in the 90s are FAR from clear-cut.

    (regarding my OP, jordan has a strong case for MVP and BEST PLAYER. i would not argue otherwise)

  6. #6
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    Default Re: 1997 MVP and best player

    Quote Originally Posted by mehyaM24
    is a crossway tie between shaq AND jordan - these two were utterly dominant that year, leading the league in scoring (1 and 2 respectively) and player efficiency rating (PER). what made shaq's numbers and all-around play special, though, is the guy playing just half of the season AND YET still being able to record these numbers. in the games that he played (51), shaq had 44 double-doubles (not a typo), 8 games of 34 & 10+, and all-around games of 25/18/5/7, 34/10/7/6, 33/11/6/3, 33/13/5/7/2, 32/14/7/3, 18/19/5, 29p/21, 23p/20r. in the playoffs, shaq averaged 27/11/3/2 on 55% TS and 52% FG along with a 29 PER, leading the lakers to the semifinals. unfortunately the lakers were to be had in 5 versus utah (not alot of help from his teammates), but still - an amazing season DESPITE the injuries.

    oth, jordan was the leading scorer for all perimeter players, with two 50 point games, eight games of 40+ points, all-around games of 30/10/11, 19/10/8, 26/14/5, 40/6/6, 45/5/7, 32 & 18. in the playoffs, jordan averaged 31/8/5 on 52%TS and 46%FG in the playoffs along with a 27 PER, helping the bulls win a championship against utah (substantial help from his teammates) - a legendary season to go with a couple iconic moments.

    and finally, the advanced metric, RAPM, which stabilizes individual impact, puts shaq atop of everyone with a 6.3 rating. michael jordan by contrast rated 4.3, just behind his teammate scottie pippen, who had ~4.6 (this goes back to team strength and overall help).

    IMO jordan was definitely the 1997 MVP over malone, as he, unlike shaq, played the entire season while administering near equal productivity. best player for me is shaq, although i can also see arguments being made for jordan (more iconic moments and the hardware to make up for the minimal statistical gap). so once again - jordan for MVP and shaq for BEST player, thus equal.

    game footage:
    shaq - 46p/11r vs blazers, playoffs
    shaq dominating in his first appearance as a laker
    shaq runs the break, spins around defender and dunks
    shaq - 34/11/6/4 vs jazz, playoffs

    jordan - 31/4/8 and game winner vs jazz, 1997 finals

    jordan - 50 points vs heat
    jordan - 55 points vs bullets, playoffs
    jordan - iconic flu game, finals


    edit: 1992 thread coming soon - i might do 1994 and 1995 although those years are mostly unanimous
    Maybe I have missed something (I did not have the time to read all of the threads - what is the agenda of discussing who the best was during the period where Jordan was dominating and winning? In particular 1993 when Jordan was at the height of his career and was undisputed and consensus league best. After his first retirement he had a reputation as the basketball's god and basketball's perfect player. Thes second best SG of his era was Drexler and MJ was one level above him. He dominated, wininig everything. Good for Hakeem that MJ steped down in 1993 otherwise I would not be suprised if Bulls won all the titles between 1991 and 1998. I mean it is not even closed. By 1998 when he was 35 he was giving him some rest during the reg. season and probably did not play as hard as he could, but always delivered when matters most. Of course if you compare his stats with that of Robinson or Shaq, or Hakeem it could seems as they are all of the same level, but the real story was a little different. The game good big mens were always good on stats (because of playing near the basket, had the height advantage, accumulating rebounds and having those high percentage shots). As I pointed on another thread David Robinson was 5 or 6 time awarded IBM award for something of a leader of PER (biggest contributor to his team in terms of stats), BUT that doesn't mean he was the best player in the league.

  7. #7
    NBA lottery pick Overdrive's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1997 MVP and best player

    I'm a huge Shaq fan, but both in 97 and 98 the Lakers underachieved. You can atleast a little bit put that on Shaq.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: 1997 MVP and best player

    Quote Originally Posted by julizaver
    Maybe I have missed something (I did not have the time to read all of the threads - what is the agenda of discussing who the best was during the period where Jordan was dominating and winning? In particular 1993 when Jordan was at the height of his career and was undisputed and consensus league best. After his first retirement he had a reputation as the basketball's god and basketball's perfect player. Thes second best SG of his era was Drexler and MJ was one level above him. He dominated, wininig everything. Good for Hakeem that MJ steped down in 1993 otherwise I would not be suprised if Bulls won all the titles between 1991 and 1998. I mean it is not even closed. By 1998 when he was 35 he was giving him some rest during the reg. season and probably did not play as hard as he could, but always delivered when matters most. Of course if you compare his stats with that of Robinson or Shaq, or Hakeem it could seems as they are all of the same level, but the real story was a little different. The game good big mens were always good on stats (because of playing near the basket, had the height advantage, accumulating rebounds and having those high percentage shots). As I pointed on another thread David Robinson was 5 or 6 time awarded IBM award for something of a leader of PER (biggest contributor to his team in terms of stats), BUT that doesn't mean he was the best player in the league.
    i'm not interested with perception. i watched all throughout the 90s and save for 90-92ish, i never ONCE thought jordan was the clear-cut, best player. not even close actually.

    RAPM, one of the best advanced metrics for gauging a players individual impact (less margin of error than a stat like PER), merely backs my opinion on the matter. neutralizing the individuals impact, it shows us that players who essentially had the same ROLE did what they did, and how they directly changed their respective teams' outcome.

    of course, jordan was the most skilled perimeter player at the time. perhaps the greatest volume scorer in history, as well - but in team basketball its IMPACT>SKILL, every. single. time. (why i would take shaq & kareem > hakeem)

    Quote Originally Posted by Overdrive
    I'm a huge Shaq fan, but both in 97 and 98 the Lakers underachieved. You can atleast a little bit put that on Shaq.
    a tiny amount? sure. but i've made a few threads on this already. the lakers as a whole outside of shaq completely went ghost against utah. both years.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: 1997 MVP and best player

    Jordan, and Jordan. There is no need to create these topics all you need to do is ask me, as I have all the answers.

  10. #10
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 3ball's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1997 MVP and best player

    Quote Originally Posted by mehyaM24

    (substantial help from his teammates)
    We know that MJ had less help than guys like Bird, Lebron, and Kobe, because in order to win his rings, MJ needed to average 10 MORE ppg in the Finals then those guys did... there is no way MJ had more help, but somehow still had to score that many more ppg in the Finals.


    Quote Originally Posted by mehyaM24

    i can also see arguments being made for jordan
    Shaq had way more supporting help than Jordan, but Jordan's teams had significantly better ORtg's than Shaq's teams... this is because the triangle ran more optimally with Jordan as the focal point, than with Shaq as the focal point - there is no other way to explain the Bulls significantly higher team ORtgs.

    the reason for the Bulls more optimal and successful triangle is simple: while shaq's scoring (like any dominant big) forces teammates to sacrifice and restrict their movements by positioning themselves appropriately to get him the ball inside, jordan's off-ball play does not restrict his teammates in any way, which enabled the Bulls' triangle to be less rigid and predictable.

    Also, it should be noted that Shaq's talented Lakers got smashed by the Utah Jazz 4-1 in the 1997 WCSF, and swept by the Jazz in the 1998 WCF - of course, Jordan went on to personally destroy both of these Jazz teams.



    and finally, the advanced metric, RAPM, which stabilizes individual impact, puts shaq atop of everyone with a 6.3 rating. michael jordan by contrast rated 4.3, just behind his teammate scottie pippen, who had ~4.6 (this goes back to team strength and overall help).
    where are you getting your RAPM data?... The data I'm seeing was linked from the APBR metrics board - it says Jordan was 2nd in 1997 RAPM with 5.84... Scottie had 5.44... and Shaq's was 4.17.

    http://apbr.org/metrics/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8536
    http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt...990s-rapm.html

  11. #11
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 3ball's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1997 MVP and best player

    Quote Originally Posted by mehyaM24

    (substantial help from his teammates)
    We know that MJ had less help than guys like Bird, Lebron, and Kobe, because in order to win his rings, MJ needed to average 10 MORE ppg in the Finals then those guys did... there is no way MJ had more help, but somehow still had to score that many more ppg in the Finals.


    Quote Originally Posted by mehyaM24

    i can also see arguments being made for jordan
    Shaq had way more supporting help than Jordan, but Jordan's teams had significantly better ORtg's than Shaq's teams... this is because the triangle ran more optimally with Jordan as the focal point, than with Shaq as the focal point - there is no other way to explain the Bulls significantly higher team ORtgs.

    the reason for the Bulls more optimal and successful triangle is simple: while shaq's scoring (like any dominant big) forces teammates to sacrifice and restrict their movements by positioning themselves appropriately to get him the ball inside, jordan's off-ball play does not restrict his teammates in any way, which enabled the Bulls' triangle to be less rigid and predictable.

    Also, it should be noted that Shaq's talented Lakers got smashed by the Utah Jazz 4-1 in the 1997 WCSF, and swept by the Jazz in the 1998 WCF - of course, Jordan went on to personally destroy both of these Jazz teams.


    Quote Originally Posted by mehyaM24

    and finally, the advanced metric, RAPM, which stabilizes individual impact, puts shaq atop of everyone with a 6.3 rating. michael jordan by contrast rated 4.3, just behind his teammate scottie pippen, who had ~4.6 (this goes back to team strength and overall help).
    where are you getting your RAPM data?... The data I'm seeing was linked from the APBR metrics board - it says Jordan was 2nd in 1997 RAPM with 5.84... Scottie had 5.44... and Shaq's was 4.17.

    http://apbr.org/metrics/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8536
    http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt...990s-rapm.html

  12. #12
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    Default Re: 1997 MVP and best player

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ball
    We know that MJ had less help than guys like Bird, Lebron, and Kobe, because in order to win his rings, MJ needed to average 10 MORE ppg in the Finals then those guys did... there is no way MJ had more help, but somehow still had to score that many more ppg in the Finals.
    RAPM suggests scottie pippen had JUST AS MUCH impact to that 97 bulls team as jordan did.

    http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/1997.html

    Shaq had way more supporting help than Jordan, but Jordan's teams had significantly better ORtg's than Shaq's teams... this is because the triangle ran more optimally with Jordan as the focal point, than with Shaq as the focal point - there is no other way to explain the Bulls significantly higher team ORtgs.
    once again, rapm, which individualizes impact per possessions, suggests the bulls had MORE help per player. scottie pippen anybody?

    where are you getting your RAPM data?... The data I'm seeing was linked from the APBR metrics board - it says Jordan was 2nd in 1997 RAPM with 5.84... Scottie had 5.44... and Shaq's was 4.17.
    http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/1997.html

    ^the guy who created this website ALSO does the "real RAPM" ratings for ESPN.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM

  13. #13
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    Default Re: 1997 MVP and best player

    rapm this rapm that. shut the **** up and watch games you dumb ****

  14. #14
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    Default Re: 1997 MVP and best player

    Quote Originally Posted by Shep
    rapm this rapm that. shut the **** up and watch games you dumb ****
    watch your tongue, or see yourself out of my thread.

    i watch game tape and back my opinions with hard data. you simply can't go wrong using BOTH.

  15. #15
    NBA lottery pick Overdrive's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1997 MVP and best player

    Quote Originally Posted by mehyaM24
    a tiny amount? sure. but i've made a few threads on this already. the lakers as a whole outside of shaq completely went ghost against utah. both years.
    That's exactly what I fault him for, he played great, but he wasn't mentally ready yet to win it all. I don't think those squads play like that with 2000 Shaq and I'm not talking about stats or oncourt impact.

    I wish Eddie Jones was on the three peat teams..

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