Shaq's teams with and without him from 2001-2007

[Roundball_Rock]

Shaq is top 5 all-time and the most underrated top 10 player. One thing that is underappreciated about him is his impact on teams, which tends to be lost in the dazzle of the big names he played with. Just look at what happened to his Lakers and Heat teams without him.

Keep in mind Shaq joined a 21 win team and Shaq turned them to a 41 win team as a rookie--and this was Shaq before he became a top 5 player. Imagine a prime Shaq on that team and how much he would have elevated it!

LAL with Shaq in 2001: 51-23 (69%)
LAL without Shaq in 2001: 5-3 (63%)
57 wins versus 52 wins.

LAL with Shaq in 2002: 51-16 (76%)
LAL without Shaq in 2002: 7-8 (47%)
62 wins versus 38.

LAL with Shaq in 2003: 45-22 (67%)
LAL without Shaq in 2003: 5-10 (33%)
55 wins versus 27.

LAL with Shaq in 2004: 49-18 (73%)
LAL without Shaq in 2004: 7-8 (47%)
60 wins versus 38.

MIA with Shaq in 2005: 53-20 (73%)
MIA without Shaq in 2005: 6-3 (67%)
60 wins versus 55.

MIA with Shaq in 2006: 42-17 (71%)
MIA without Shaq in 2007: 10-13 (43%)
58 wins versus 35.

MIA with Shaq in 2007: 25-15 (63%)
MIA without Shaq in 2007: 19-23 (45%)
51 wins versus 37.

It is remarkable how these teams, all of which were contenders except the 07' squad, fell off so dramatically without Shaq. Shaq was contending with teams that struggled to reach 0.500 without him.

Yet people usually barely have him in their top 10? Why? Shaq had arguably the GOAT peak, a lengthy prime that lasted from 1994-2005, was a top 5 player every year from 1994-2005, was a top 10 player every year from 1994-2006 and was an all-star player in his 17th season, when he was 36. His longevity is comparable to or superior to anyone else in the top 10 all-time, other than KAJ and Duncan.

What is the case for someone like Magic, Bird over Shaq? Some people even put Hakeem over Shaq. Shaq is comparable or superior in winning, had a greater peak and had better longevity.

[Jacks3]

You've made this same thread multiple times.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Shaq is top 5 all-time and the most underrated top 10 player. One thing that is underappreciated about him is his impact on teams, which tends to be lost in the dazzle of the big names he played with. Just look at what happened to his Lakers and Heat teams without him.

Keep in mind Shaq joined a 21 win team and Shaq turned them to a 41 win team as a rookie--and this was Shaq before he became a top 5 player. Imagine a prime Shaq on that team and how much he would have elevated it!

LAL with Shaq in 2001: 51-23 (69%)
LAL without Shaq in 2001: 5-3 (63%)
57 wins versus 52 wins.

LAL with Shaq in 2002: 51-16 (76%)
LAL without Shaq in 2002: 7-8 (47%)
62 wins versus 38.

LAL with Shaq in 2003: 45-22 (67%)
LAL without Shaq in 2003: 5-10 (33%)
55 wins versus 27.

LAL with Shaq in 2004: 49-18 (73%)
LAL without Shaq in 2004: 7-8 (47%)
60 wins versus 38.

MIA with Shaq in 2005: 53-20 (73%)
MIA without Shaq in 2005: 6-3 (67%)
60 wins versus 55.

MIA with Shaq in 2006: 42-17 (71%)
MIA without Shaq in 2007: 10-13 (43%)
58 wins versus 35.

MIA with Shaq in 2007: 25-15 (63%)
MIA without Shaq in 2007: 19-23 (45%)
51 wins versus 37.

It is remarkable how these teams, all of which were contenders except the 07' squad, fell off so dramatically without Shaq. Shaq was contending with teams that struggled to reach 0.500 without him.

Yet people usually barely have him in their top 10? Why? Shaq had arguably the GOAT peak, a lengthy prime that lasted from 1994-2005, was a top 5 player every year from 1994-2005, was a top 10 player every year from 1994-2006 and was an all-star player in his 17th season, when he was 36. His longevity is comparable to or superior to anyone else in the top 10 all-time, other than KAJ and Duncan.

What is the case for someone like Magic, Bird over Shaq? Some people even put Hakeem over Shaq. Shaq is comparable or superior in winning, had a greater peak and had better longevity.

they weren't liabilities in the 4th quarter of close games

[Roundball_Rock]

You've made this same thread multiple times.

I made one similar to this, but much longer and accompanied with far more writing, about five years ago. A Shaq thread certainly is welcome amid the usual daily 25 threads on LeBron, Kobe, and MJ.

[ArbitraryWater]

they weren't liabilities in the 4th quarter of close games

Prove this shit talking..

show me multiple games in the playoffs where they took out Shaq due to his FT shooting.

[KobesFinger]

In what world is Shaq underrated? People always acknowledge his GOAT peak and his dominance. People rarely talk about his first round exits, his ring chasing, the players he's played with or the fact it was his way or the high way

[Prime_Shaq]

While Shaq did have some monster stats, alot of what he did couldn't even be quantified with stats

[ArbitraryWater]

In what world is Shaq underrated? People always acknowledge his GOAT peak and his dominance. People rarely talk about his first round exits, his ring chasing, the players he's played with or the fact it was his way or the high way

Shaq is hideously underrated on all time lists.. somehow he's always mentioned around 8-10, hell, doesn't Simmons have him 13, or 11 was it?

[T_L_P]

I personally have Shaq ranked 5th or 6th all-time.

One of the greatest peaks ever and extremely underrated longevity. Basically came into the league a superstar (though he was quite raw).

Main negatives being his distinct lack of leadership at times and I personally didn't think much of his defense.

[Prime_Shaq]

I personally have Shaq ranked 5th or 6th all-time.

One of the greatest peaks ever and extremely underrated longevity. Basically came into the league a superstar (though he was quite raw).

Main negatives being his distinct lack of leadership at times and I personally didn't think much of him defensively.

If you're talking about his career as a whole then I'm ok with it, but from 2000 to 2006-2007 his defense was pretty underrated. Moving on to the Suns team didn't really help either.

[Roundball_Rock]

In what world is Shaq underrated? People always acknowledge his GOAT peak and his dominance. People rarely talk about his first round exits, his ring chasing, the players he's played with or the fact it was his way or the high way

Half of ISH has Hakeem over Shaq. Shaq also almost always is listed behind Magic, Bird. There also are a few who have Kobe over Shaq. I don't think Duncan>Shaq but Duncan has a legitimate case (greater winner, greater longevity) over Shaq in a way someone like Hakeem or Bird does not imo. Maybe I am the one who is off and am overrating Shaq but I view Shaq as the "best of class" of the next group that comes after MJ/KAJ/Wilt/Russell (LeBron conceivably could join this group but is not there yet).

First round exits? Hakeem is the king of first round exits and no one holds that against him. Prime Shaq lost in the first round only in 94', his second year. Other than that he was at least in the second round every year from 1995-2006 and he won 4 rings, reached 6 Finals and 9 conference finals during this span.

[T_L_P]

If you're talking about his career as a whole then I'm ok with it, but from 2000 to 2006-2007 his defense was pretty underrated. Moving on to the Suns team didn't really help either.

I am mainly talking about his overall prime (so, what, 95-04?).

That's not to say he was bad defensively. In actual fact he was very good. I just meant I didn't think much of it in comparison to other all-time great big men (Hakeem, Duncan, Russell, Robinson, etc).

His defensive play in Miami was def. underrated.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Duncan has a legitimate case (greater winner, greater longevity) over Shaq in a way someone like Hakeem or Bird does not imo.

Finally someone with reason.

Bird has no argument over either Duncan or Shaq.

[sd3035]

[TheMarkMadsen]

Prove this shit talking..

show me multiple games in the playoffs where they took out Shaq due to his FT shooting.

this is common knowledge to anybody who basketball prior to Dirk winning his ring, Shaq was always a liability in the 4th quarter of close games.

ever heard of hack a Shaq? this was a huge liability towards the end of games which prevented the Lakers from being able to dump the ball down to Shaq towards the end of close games

2002 Spurs-Lakers series:

Kobe averaged 9.2 ppg on 64% shooting in fourth quarters. Shaq averaged 4.5 ppg on 29%.

In the last three games of the series (all of which LA won), Lakers went in trailing in the fourth quarter or second half. In game 3, Kobe took over in the fourth, shot 5/5 and outscored the entire Spurs team by himself for a long stretch in the fourth. In game 4, Kobe outscored the Spurs by himself in the fourth quarter and hit the game winning shot. And in game 5, Kobe scored 10 pts in the fourth (on 4/7) and made the assist on Horry’s game clinching three. Lakers won those three games by 10, 2 and 6 pts.

Shaq in these last three wins averaged 1.7 ppg on 11% (1/9 from floor). Kobe meanwhile averaged 11 ppg on 67%, also hit a game winner and outscored the Spurs single handedl for long stretches in the fourth. Duncan choking was another big factor, and I'm sure Shaq was taking care of business on defense but offensively the difference in production is so huge.

2002 Kings-Lakers series:

Kobe averaged 8.6 ppg on 43%, 96% on FTs and had just 5 turnovers. Shaq averaged just 5.4 ppg on 31%, 68% FTs and had 8 turnovers. Kobe’s lowest scoring fourth quarter was in the game 7, he had 4 pts but took only 2 shots (one a bailout three, another a tip in attempt at the buzzer). But he spoonfed Shaq and others in the quarter. Shaq was 2/7 in the fourth (and had 2 TOs), and his only two made shots came when Kobe spoonfed him a dunk and a layup. He did step up in OT though (6 pts on 2/5).

props to fatal


There's a reason Kobe was leading the league in 4th quarter playoff scoring for b2b championship runs, he was the closer, he had to close because Shaq wasn't reliable in late game situations where the other team could just foul him and put him on the line where he's going to make 50% of those shots..