Better playoff performer, a 33/6/6 guy or a 28/9/7 guy?

[Poetry]

Let's hypothetically assume there are two basketball players. One averages 28/9/7, the other averages 33/6/6.

In a few years, that 28 point average will drop down to 27, then 26, then maybe 25.

If you had asked this question when the guy averaging 33 for his career was 31-years-old, his stats would have been 34.4/6.7/6.5.

[Dray n Klay]

In a few years, that 28 point average will drop down to 27, then 26, then maybe 25.

If you had asked this question when the guy averaging 33 for his career was 31-years-old, his stats would have been 34.4/6.7/6.5.

It doesnt matter, I'm just comparing their first 13 seasons.


Why hold it against someone for playing more seasons?

[Poetry]

It doesnt matter, I'm just comparing their first 13 seasons.


Why hold it against someone for playing more seasons?

I'm not holding it against him, but you're trying to compare two different things.

If we looked at the first 13 years of Kareem's playoff career, his numbers would look like this:

28.1/13.1/3.7

But when you look at his career playoff numbers:

24.3/10.5/3.2.

[Dragonyeuw]

You realize we already have metrics that show what you're trying to show here?

Almost all of them favor Jordan. So no matter what you try and account for, it all winds up the same unless you use a terribly biased/flawed system, which is what your prior one was

Or just the kind of logic you'd expect from someone inbred, I'm thinking two siblings here. Can't be anyone this stupid without some bad genetic coding....

[Rojogaqu11]

On a purely objective and simple comparison, net points are always a more significant statistic than rebounds and even assists, regardless if these two could also be converted into points.

The end result a team strives towards is to make more points than the opponent. But rebounds and assists are only devices that may facilitate that end result.

All other things being equal, I would pick a player that can individually score 5 more points per game than a player who has 1 more assist and 3 more rebounds on average per game.

And this is the reason:

A player can manipulate his rebounds and assists to a certain extent.
This is why there are players who are regarded as "stat padders" or with "empty stats." In most cases, these players are very conspicuous in manipulating their playing style in order to accumulate a particular statistic. And because this manipulation can happen, these particular statistics lose their value as objective measurements of individual performance.

It could be said that points can also be padded in specific instances, but regardless of that possibility, unlike other statistics, they are central to a teams objective, which is to win. Points are the only statistic which directly affect or are counted towards a winning or losing performance.

On the other hand, assists rely on an additional player's ability to score, rather than the skill of the one who is attributed to, and are consequently more subjective as a measurement of individual performance. Rebounds are even more difficult to quantify in comparative assessments because they are contingent on either team's inability to score.

That is why two similar players will ultimately be distinguished from each other by their individual ability to add points to their team.
In this peculiar case of the OP, the difference in points is more than enough to make up for the slight difference in two lesser statistics. Rebounds and assists are excessively secondary and dependent on other components of a game to be able to translate them into a raw value as simple as points made.

[Dragonyeuw]

On a purely objective and simple comparison, net points are always a more significant statistic than rebounds and even assists, regardless if these two could also be converted into points.

The end result a team strives towards is to make more points than the opponent. But rebounds and assists are only devices that may facilitate that end result.

All other things being equal, I would pick a player that can individually score 5 more points per game than a player who has 1 more assist and 3 more rebounds on average per game.

And this is the reason:

A player can manipulate his rebounds and assists to a certain extent.
This is why there are players who are regarded as "stat padders" or with "empty stats." In most cases, these players are very conspicuous in manipulating their playing style in order to accumulate a particular statistic. And because this manipulation can happen, these particular statistics lose their value as objective measurements of individual performance.

It could be said that points can also be padded in specific instances, but regardless of that possibility, unlike other statistics, they are central to a teams objective, which is to win. Points are the only statistic which directly affect or are counted towards a winning or losing performance.

On the other hand, assists rely on an additional player's ability to score, rather than the skill of the one who is attributed to, and are consequently more subjective as a measurement of individual performance. Rebounds are even more difficult to quantify in comparative assessments because they are contingent on either team's inability to score.

That is why two similar players will ultimately be distinguished from each other by their individual ability to add points to their team.
In this peculiar case of the OP, the difference in points is more than enough to make up for the slight difference in two lesser statistics. Rebounds and assists are excessively secondary and dependent on other components of a game to be able to translate them into a raw value as simple as points made.

You realize you just made the OP's brain implode with this post, yeah?

[Dragonyeuw]

If any argument is to be made that a rebound is likely to translate to points, it would be on the offensive end of the floor. An offensive rebound directly leads to another opportunity for the offensive team to score. And guess what, MJ averaged 1.7 offensive rebounds to Lebron's 1.6 in the playoffs, in the regular season MJ averages 1.6, to Lebron's 1.2. Whoops....

[GrapeApe]

You realize we already have metrics that show what you're trying to show here?

Almost all of them favor Jordan. So no matter what you try and account for, it all winds up the same unless you use a terribly biased/flawed system, which is what your prior one was

The ironic thing about that is Lebron stans love advanced metrics...........except when it comes to comparing Lebron to Jordan. That's the only time advanced metrics are conspicuously absent from their argument. They'll talk about Lebron's PER and efficiency all day, but the minute you bring up Jordan it instantly shifts to raw stats.

[SamuraiSWISH]

If any argument is to be made that a rebound is likely to translate to points, it would be on the offensive end of the floor. An offensive rebound directly leads to another opportunity for the offensive team to score. And guess what, MJ averaged 1.7 offensive rebounds to Lebron's 1.6 in the playoffs, in the regular season MJ averages 1.6, to Lebron's 1.2. Whoops....

And that's with Mike being a guard, as opposed to a forward, who is 2 to 3 inches shorter and probably 40 pounds lighter.

So LeBron dominated the ball as a PG on offense. Yet only dishes out one more assist?

Is a whole tier lower as a scorer, given the monumental 5 ppg difference as well?!



Oh and basically average the same amount of meaningful offensive rebounds? This as always was a no brainier.

33/6/6 is easily 28/9/7. Only people to disagree would be Oscar, LeBron, and pocket calculator dorks. Basketball fans know what's better in reality.

[Doranku]

On a purely objective and simple comparison, net points are always a more significant statistic than rebounds and even assists, regardless if these two could also be converted into points.

The end result a team strives towards is to make more points than the opponent. But rebounds and assists are only devices that may facilitate that end result.

All other things being equal, I would pick a player that can individually score 5 more points per game than a player who has 1 more assist and 3 more rebounds on average per game.

And this is the reason:

A player can manipulate his rebounds and assists to a certain extent.
This is why there are players who are regarded as "stat padders" or with "empty stats." In most cases, these players are very conspicuous in manipulating their playing style in order to accumulate a particular statistic. And because this manipulation can happen, these particular statistics lose their value as objective measurements of individual performance.

It could be said that points can also be padded in specific instances, but regardless of that possibility, unlike other statistics, they are central to a teams objective, which is to win. Points are the only statistic which directly affect or are counted towards a winning or losing performance.

On the other hand, assists rely on an additional player's ability to score, rather than the skill of the one who is attributed to, and are consequently more subjective as a measurement of individual performance. Rebounds are even more difficult to quantify in comparative assessments because they are contingent on either team's inability to score.

That is why two similar players will ultimately be distinguished from each other by their individual ability to add points to their team.
In this peculiar case of the OP, the difference in points is more than enough to make up for the slight difference in two lesser statistics. Rebounds and assists are excessively secondary and dependent on other components of a game to be able to translate them into a raw value as simple as points made.

Great post.

[Da_Realist]

And that's with Mike being a guard, as opposed to a forward, who is 2 to 3 inches shorter and probably 40 pounds lighter.

So LeBron dominated the ball as a PG on offense. Yet only dishes out one more assist?

Is a whole tier lower as a scorer, given the monumental 5 ppg difference as well?!



Oh and basically average the same amount of meaningful offensive rebounds? This as always was a no brainier.

33/6/6 is easily 28/9/7. Only people to disagree would be Oscar, LeBron, and pocket calculator dorks. Basketball fans know what's better in reality.

Agreed. Numbers normalize things. What gets lost is that MJ could beat you different ways. There was no way to prepare for him. He kept everyone off balance. He may explode for 54 points and then beat you with his all around game 2 days later. How do you prepare for that? You can't. If you play him too close, he'll drive in and compromise your defense. If you guard against that and give him space, he would average an easy 41 against you. He could dominate the post area and carve up the defense by forcing a double which frees up his teammates.

Lebron is a lot more predictable in his approach and can be slowed down much more easily than MJ.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Agreed. Numbers normalize things. What gets lost is that MJ could beat you different ways. There was no way to prepare for him. He kept everyone off balance. He may explode for 54 points and then beat you with his all around game 2 days later. How do you prepare for that? You can't. If you play him too close, he'll drive in and compromise your defense. If you guard against that and give him space, he would average an easy 41 against you. He could dominate the post area and carve up the defense by forcing a double which frees up his teammates.*

Lebron is a lot more predictable in his approach and can be slowed down much more easily than MJ.

Well Jordan was playing chess and LeBron plays basic checkers offensively.

That's why when kids retort to ... look MJ is being guarded by PGs in those clips!!!

Why do you think that is students?

Because when they had the very long, athletic, or strong guys like Stacey Augmon, Dennis Rodman, Byron Russell, Dan Majerle, Gerald Wilkins, Nate McMillan, Tony Dumas, Clyde Drexler, Cliff Robinson guarding Jordan, he would zoom past them off the dribble and totally destroy the internal portion of the opposing teams defense by attacking the basket, dunking, and 1s, dishing and getting the other team in massive foul trouble.

He compromised the entire defense by attacking and finishing or even passing. Stuff that Kobe didn't pay attention to when emulating his game, or stuff physically he just couldn't take. Or a mentality with more heart and desire he couldn't replicate.

So for the defense to try and negate his blinding quickness for a 6'6 hyper athlete that was compromising the entire defense ... They had to put PG size defenders on him with smaller frames and more similar foot speed like KJ, Dumas, Payton, Derek Harper, and then Jordan playing chess would post them up and shoot right over them.

He wasn't limited offensively.

The way Kobe is with driving, attacking and taking contact.

Or

The way LeBron is with ISO skills, finesse footwork and jumper.

Thus 33 ppg > Everyone Else in History.