Amazing Larry Bird stat note

[jlauber]

And a case could be made that out of Kobe's 6 finals appearances, he was only the best player on the court in ONE as well, last year, when he beat the Magic.

Not arguing that, although his POST-SEASONs have generally been better. My main point about Bird, was that he was not some god. IMHO, he was NOT a better player than Kobe.

Incidently, I have Kobe ranked below Shaq (#7)...and if you count PEAK, Shaq moves up considerably.

[shadow]

24 10 6 @ 50% shooting is pretty damn good if you ask me.

[Soothsayer]

Not arguing that, although his POST-SEASONs have generally been better. My main point about Bird, was that he was not some god. IMHO, he was NOT a better player than Kobe.

Incidently, I have Kobe ranked below Shaq (#7)...and if you count PEAK, Shaq moves up considerably.

I understand. It just seems like sometimes we cherry pick different standards to apply to different players in order to confirm our opinions. Point being, let's apply objective standards when comparing players. For instance, just focusing on "scoring" and not even "efficient scoring" obviously favors Kobe...without any justification having been offered for why volume scoring is the most important factor.

[Showtime]

Not arguing that, although his POST-SEASONs have generally been better. My main point about Bird, was that he was not some god. IMHO, he was NOT a better player than Kobe.

Incidently, I have Kobe ranked below Shaq (#7)...and if you count PEAK, Shaq moves up considerably.

So, what are you basing this opinion on other than PPG? I have yet to see a post about how Bird's efficiency, superior passing ability and IQ, clutch play, and versatility are irrelevant.

I'd rather have the guy who is a 27/12/8 threat on efficient play than a 32/5/5 guy who is less efficient, but that's just me.

[sirkeelma]

Even more amazing are his career playoff stats, including PER (for those that value it.) He cracks the top-25 in ppg, at #24 (23.76), but that is about it.

Once again, and carrying my argument from another thread...Kobe is a better player, in terms of career, than Bird was.

lDlOT.

[jlauber]

If you wanna see dominance, check his 60 point game against the hawks.

He did it because he felt like it.

Let's knock off two BIRD's with one stone here. Bill Simmons and Larry Bird...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=120113

It's ok for Bird to score 60 points in a game that was long decided, but not ok for Kobe to score 61 against the Knicks...or even more importantly, when Kobe scored 62 against the Mavs, in three quarters (yes, Kobe 62, Dallas 61)...and took himself out of the game.

[Fatal9]

First of all, Kareem AND Magic were better in '85, and Magic was CLEARLY better in '87.

Now, on to '81. Bird averaged 15.3 ppg, 15.0 rpg, 7.0 apg, and shot .419 from the field. He didn't deserve, NOR did he win the Finals MVP. He was outplayed by his own teammate, Cornbread Maxwell, who averaged 17.7 ppg, 9.5 rpg, and shot .568 from the floor. Meanwhile Moses Malone put up a 22.2 ppg, 16.3 rpg series, with arguably a bad .403 FG%. In any case, if Bird were the best in that series, he was not very good.

'84. IF LA had not GIVEN games two and four, Bird wouldn't have won that Finals MVP. I do agree that he was the best player in that series...ALTHOUGH it was close. Bird averaged 27.4 ppg, with 14.0 rpg, 3.6 apg, and shot .484. Meanwhile Magic had a very good series (although his FT shooting down the stretch killed LA in game four.) He averaged 18.1 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 13.6 apg, and shot .560 from the field.

In '86 Bird's numbers were good, but debateable. 24.0 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 9.5 apg on .482 shooting. His fellow teammate, Kevin McHale averaged 25.8 ppg, 8.5 rpg, and shot .573 from the floor. Houston's Olajuwon 24.7 ppg, 11.8 rpg, 3.1 bpg, and shot .479 from the field.

In '85, Bird averaged 23.8 ppg, 8.8 rpg, 9.5 apg, and shot .450. His teammate McHale, went for 26.0 ppg, 10.7 rpg, and shot .598. Meanwhile, Kareem, after a horrible game one, dominated the rest of the series. He finished with 25.7 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 5.2 apg, and shot .604 from the field. And Magic put up 18.3 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 14.0 apg, and shot .494 from the floor.

In '87, Bird put up 24.2 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 5.5 apg, and shot .445 from the floor. Magic went for 26.2 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 13.0 apg, and shot .541 from the field.

Sorry, but these are the FACTS. Was Bird a great player, sure for a period of about five years. I have him at #10 on MY all-time list. And, yes, he is well below Magic (#2), and is even below Kobe (#8.) In terms of career, he is where he should be.

This is a joke right?

'81 finals MVP, like the '80 one was a pretty awful pick. Bird struggled in the middle of the series with his shot (though always came out with near triple doubles anyways, and didn't really shoot that much in those games FYI). The series would have been over early if it wasn't for Bird's 18/21/9 performance in game 1 and clutch shots (would have been down 0-2 otherwise). I guess you missed the part where Bird was digging out the ball with relentless rebounding against Moses and spoonfed Maxwell on the break. But you'd have to watch the games to notice that. And then in game 6, Bird was the one who closed out the Rockets on the road in the second half by hitting fadeaways from all over the court.

In '84...lol @ "it was close as to who the best player was" and you bring up Magic (aka Tragic) of all people...the guy who single handedly blew the series? He had one of the greatest finals performances ever. After being down 2-1, he called out his team and hit a game winner on the road in overtime (also had 29 pts and 21 boards that game). In the pivotal game 5 heatwave game, he put up 34/17 on 15/20 shooting in one of the greatest single game performances in NBA history. Averaged 27/14/4 overall. Delivered everything a superstar can leadership wise too.

In '85, he shot poorly but he had an elbow injury. And in '87, Lakers were huge favorites coming into the series because literally everyone on Boston was injured (they actually had to play tough series in the East and couldn't beat up on cupcake soft teams like the Nuggets out West).

In '86, again one of the greatest finals performances ever (top 5). Closest anyone has come to ever averaging a triple double in the finals with 24/10/10/3, and even then the stats probably sell his performance in those finals short. And then the close out game...another performance that could go down as one of the greatest ever in the finals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3i9gt3UE0Q . You are literally the ONLY person I've met who thinks Bird wasn't the best player in the finals by a significant margin.

If you are using finals/playoffs as a reason to say Kobe > Bird, you might want to wait until he puts together a SINGLE finals performance at the level of Bird in '84 and '86. What a waste of time, this shouldn't even need to be discussed.

[juju151111]

Not arguing that, although his POST-SEASONs have generally been better. My main point about Bird, was that he was not some god. IMHO, he was NOT a better player than Kobe.

Incidently, I have Kobe ranked below Shaq (#7)...and if you count PEAK, Shaq moves up considerably.

I have ranked Magic over Bird, but KB?? Maybe with winning this year.

[Soothsayer]

This is a joke right?

'81 finals MVP, like the '80 one was a pretty awful pick. Bird struggled in the middle of the series with his shot (though always came out with near triple doubles anyways, and didn't really shoot that much in those games FYI). The series would have been over early if it wasn't for Bird's 18/21/9 performance in game 1 and clutch shots (would have been down 0-2 otherwise). I guess you missed the part where Bird was digging out the ball with relentless rebounding against Moses and spoonfed Maxwell on the break. But you'd have to watch the games to notice that. And then in game 6, Bird was the one who closed out the Rockets on the road in the second half by hitting fadeaways from all over the court.

In '84...lol @ "it was close as to who the best player was" and you bring up Magic (aka Tragic) of all people...the guy who single handedly blew the series? He had one of the greatest finals performances ever. After being down 2-1, he called out his team and hit a game winner on the road in overtime (also had 29 pts and 21 boards that game). In the pivotal game 5 heatwave game, he put up 34/17 on 15/20 shooting in one of the greatest single game performances in NBA history. Averaged 27/14/4 overall. Delivered everything a superstar can leadership wise too.

In '85, he shot poorly but he had an elbow injury. And in '87, Lakers were huge favorites coming into the series because literally everyone on Boston was injured (they actually had to play tough series in the East and couldn't beat up on cupcake soft teams like the Nuggets out West).

In '86, again one of the greatest finals performances ever (top 5). Closest anyone has come to ever averaging a triple double in the finals with 24/10/10/3, and even then the stats probably sell his performance in those finals short. And then the close out game...another performance that could go down as one of the greatest ever in the finals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3i9gt3UE0Q . You are literally the ONLY person I've met who thinks Bird wasn't the best player in the finals by a significant margin.

If you are using finals/playoffs as a reason to say Kobe > Bird, you might want to wait until he puts together a SINGLE finals performance at the level of Bird in '84 and '86. What a waste of time, this shouldn't even need to be discussed.

[juju151111]

This is a joke right?

'81 finals MVP, like the '80 one was a pretty awful pick. Bird struggled in the middle of the series with his shot (though always came out with near triple doubles anyways, and didn't really shoot that much in those games FYI). The series would have been over early if it wasn't for Bird's 18/21/9 performance in game 1 and clutch shots (would have been down 0-2 otherwise). I guess you missed the part where Bird was digging out the ball with relentless rebounding against Moses and spoonfed Maxwell on the break. But you'd have to watch the games to notice that. And then in game 6, Bird was the one who closed out the Rockets on the road in the second half by hitting fadeaways from all over the court.

In '84...lol @ "it was close as to who the best player was" and you bring up Magic (aka Tragic) of all people...the guy who single handedly blew the series? He had one of the greatest finals performances ever. After being down 2-1, he called out his team and hit a game winner on the road in overtime (also had 29 pts and 21 boards that game). In the pivotal game 5 heatwave game, he put up 34/17 on 15/20 shooting in one of the greatest single game performances in NBA history. Averaged 27/14/4 overall. Delivered everything a superstar can leadership wise too.

In '85, he shot poorly but he had an elbow injury. And in '87, Lakers were huge favorites coming into the series because literally everyone on Boston was injured (they actually had to play tough series in the East and couldn't beat up on cupcake soft teams like the Nuggets out West).

In '86, again one of the greatest finals performances ever (top 5). Closest anyone has come to ever averaging a triple double in the finals with 24/10/10/3, and even then the stats probably sell his performance in those finals short. And then the close out game...another performance that could go down as one of the greatest ever in the finals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3i9gt3UE0Q . You are literally the ONLY person I've met who thinks Bird wasn't the best player in the finals by a significant margin.

If you are using finals/playoffs as a reason to say Kobe > Bird, you might want to wait until he puts together a SINGLE finals performance at the level of Bird in '84 and '86. What a waste of time, this shouldn't even need to be discussed.

Post the 81 gms on YT if u have them. I like ur Bird collection.

[Kblaze8855]

Topics like this are almost painful to read.

I tried for like 10 minutes to reply to this and I couldnt think of a way to convey the extent of my disgust. Really. I sat here with a bag of BBQ skins and some Tahatian treat...thinking....trying to put into words what reading this topic made me feel. And I failed. I do believe the time has come for me to leave. I say leave and not "retire" because...I just find the idea of "retiring" from a message board lame. But damn....

Feeling real Mutomboish right about now. I have like 600 minutes of solid defense left in me and as a 9th man I can stretch that out for another season but...why?

[jlauber]

This is a joke right?

'81 finals MVP, like the '80 one was a pretty awful pick. Bird struggled in the middle of the series with his shot (though always came out with near triple doubles anyways, and didn't really shoot that much in those games FYI). The series would have been over early if it wasn't for Bird's 18/21/9 performance in game 1 and clutch shots (would have been down 0-2 otherwise). I guess you missed the part where Bird was digging out the ball with relentless rebounding against Moses and spoonfed Maxwell on the break. But you'd have to watch the games to notice that. And then in game 6, Bird was the one who closed out the Rockets on the road in the second half by hitting fadeaways from all over the court.

In '84...lol @ "it was close as to who the best player was" and you bring up Magic (aka Tragic) of all people...the guy who single handedly blew the series? He had one of the greatest finals performances ever. After being down 2-1, he called out his team and hit a game winner on the road in overtime (also had 29 pts and 21 boards that game). In the pivotal game 5 heatwave game, he put up 34/17 on 15/20 shooting in one of the greatest single game performances in NBA history. Averaged 27/14/4 overall. Delivered everything a superstar can leadership wise too.

In '85, he shot poorly but he had an elbow injury. And in '87, Lakers were huge favorites coming into the series because literally everyone on Boston was injured (they actually had to play tough series in the East and couldn't beat up on cupcake soft teams like the Nuggets out West).

In '86, again one of the greatest finals performances ever (top 5). Closest anyone has come to ever averaging a triple double in the finals with 24/10/10/3, and even then the stats probably sell his performance in those finals short. And then the close out game...another performance that could go down as one of the greatest ever in the finals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3i9gt3UE0Q . You are literally the ONLY person I've met who thinks Bird wasn't the best player in the finals by a significant margin.

If you are using finals/playoffs as a reason to say Kobe > Bird, you might want to wait until he puts together a SINGLE finals performance at the level of Bird in '84 and '86. What a waste of time, this shouldn't even need to be discussed.

Let's see... in the 01-02 Finals, Kobe averaged 26.8 ppg, on .514 shooting (and .545 on 3pt shooting.) In the entire 00-01 Playoffs, Kobe averaged 29.4 ppg, 7.3 rpg, and 6.1 apg. Kobe also had FOUR PLAYOFFs with 30+ ppg. Bird NEVER came close to shooting 50% in the Finals BTW, nor did he ever come close to averaging 30 ppg in the post-season.

Bird averaged about 23 ppg, on about .460 shooting in his five Finals.

Regarding "Tragic" Johnson...yeah, he was hardly clutch..except in game five of the '87 Finals, when he hit the game winner, while Bird missed a potential game winner at the buzzer. Of course, maybe you can find a Finals game like game six of the '80 Finals, when Magic put up a 42-15 game.

[juju151111]

Topics like this are almost painful to read.

I tried for like 10 minutes to reply to this and I couldnt think of a way to convey the extent of my disgust. Really. I sat here with a bag of BBQ skins and some Tahatian treat...thinking....trying to put into words what reading this topic made me feel. And I failed. I do believe the time has come for me to leave. I say leave and not "retire" because...I just find the idea of "retiring" from a message board lame. But damn....

Feeling real Mutomboish right about now. I have like 600 minutes of solid defense left in me and as a 9th man I can stretch that out for another season but...why?

LOL Why would u let a dumbass make you leave?? This is standard stuff who look at stats only in ISH. You should be use to it by know. Good job OP

[Go Getter]

Bird is one of the all-time greats period. Arguing that makes you look like you don't know basketball at all--seriously.

One thing though...people always attribute his awesome career to smarts and not natural talent but hand-eye coordination is a natural talent and Bird had that in excess.

[jlauber]

Bird is one of the all-time greats period. Arguing that makes you look like you don't know basketball at all--seriously.

One thing though...people always attribute his awesome career to smarts and not natural talent but hand-eye coordination is a natural talent and Bird had that in excess.

Bird IS one of the all-time greats. #10.