Is Duncan overrated?

[dhsilv]

It's going to be a long season ...

Where are you getting this data out of curiosity?

[juju151111]

Hakeem would score on Duncan without a problem...his team would score less than Duncan's. Pick any year for them...

No he wouldn't. Give them equal teams and Hakeem wins.

[DMAVS41]

Again this doesn't have anything to do with Duncan.

I'm purely stating I don't think Hakeem could play in a team concept and he just didn't get it. So for me I'm never taking hakeem over Duncan offensively. You could be right that it was teammates and coaching, but I can't change those things and see if it would be different.

You honestly think Hakeem was incapable of playing within a team concept?

Like, you are telling me, that if Hakeem played under Pop and played on the Spurs instead of Duncan that he would not have been capable of listening to Pop and playing within a team concept?

I mean...if you really believe that....then I'm interested to know where you rank Hakeem all time. Because no way can you have him top 15 if you think he was that big of a selfish "me first" type player.

[dhsilv]

You honestly think Hakeem was incapable of playing within a team concept?

Like, you are telling me, that if Hakeem played under Pop and played on the Spurs instead of Duncan that he would not have been capable of listening to Pop and playing within a team concept?

I mean...if you really believe that....then I'm interested to know where you rank Hakeem all time. Because no way can you have him top 15 if you think he was that big of a selfish "me first" type player.

See that becomes a tough question, because again I didn't see him in a different scenario.

With better coaching perhaps he learns to be a better passer? Duncan sucked as a passer when he first came into the league but he quickly got better. Even in the title run I think by all time great player standards Hakeem is the worst passer among the top 25.

Where I'm going is that we need a reason why he was a weak passer. If it was poor court awareness than, a better coach can't do much for him. If it was ego and selfishness a good coach can't do much for him. If he just didn't understand how to play within a team offense, a good coach could make him the best player ever potentially.

As for the ranking, this thread has given me some time to look at Hakeem more closely. I've always just slotted him somewhere around Moses in that 11-15 range, but you've made some good points. He might need to move back a hair. Though it's hard to drop a guy who was at Hakeem's level defensively too far and even with his poor passing and general awareness, he's still a top 50 scorer and in a weak era he could be a one man show offensively. To me he can't drop lower than Karl Malone so I guess that gives a reasonable range for him.

[dhsilv]

No he wouldn't. Give them equal teams and Hakeem wins.

I was explaining my view on the two players and using a team scenario. What the hell was the purpose of that post?

[DMAVS41]

See that becomes a tough question, because again I didn't see him in a different scenario.

With better coaching perhaps he learns to be a better passer? Duncan sucked as a passer when he first came into the league but he quickly got better. Even in the title run I think by all time great player standards Hakeem is the worst passer among the top 25.

Where I'm going is that we need a reason why he was a weak passer. If it was poor court awareness than, a better coach can't do much for him. If it was ego and selfishness a good coach can't do much for him. If he just didn't understand how to play within a team offense, a good coach could make him the best player ever potentially.

As for the ranking, this thread has given me some time to look at Hakeem more closely. I've always just slotted him somewhere around Moses in that 11-15 range, but you've made some good points. He might need to move back a hair. Though it's hard to drop a guy who was at Hakeem's level defensively too far and even with his poor passing and general awareness, he's still a top 50 scorer and in a weak era he could be a one man show offensively. To me he can't drop lower than Karl Malone so I guess that gives a reasonable range for him.

Again, I agree Hakeem had his flaws...like a lot of players do.

I just never viewed Hakeem as inherently selfish and narrow minded as you do.

We'll never know, but the player I saw obviously had the raw ability and talent...and I just don't see why he'd resist listening to a coach like Pop, or Phil, or Riley, or Brown, or Rick...etc.

A lot of what you say is accurate from an objective standpoint with Hakeem's game, but at the same time, a lot of that is easily fixable with better coaching and teams around him.

[dhsilv]

Again, I agree Hakeem had his flaws...like a lot of players do.

I just never viewed Hakeem as inherently selfish and narrow minded as you do.

We'll never know, but the player I saw obviously had the raw ability and talent...and I just don't see why he'd resist listening to a coach like Pop, or Phil, or Riley, or Brown, or Rick...etc.

A lot of what you say is accurate from an objective standpoint with Hakeem's game, but at the same time, a lot of that is easily fixable with better coaching and teams around him.

Well this is why I'm not saying he was like this because he was selfish. He very well might just not have had great court awareness, for all I know he lacked great peripheral vision? But even if we fixed him in that he passed sooner, he just wasn't good as a passer. That is seriously from a technical skills list his only weakness but it's a big deal.

We fully agree he had the tools to be vastly better, but I could say the same about Rasheed Wallace. Sheed could have been a top 20 all time guy with his skill set. It didn't happen. Could Pop or Jackson have fixed that? Who knows.

[DMAVS41]

Well this is why I'm not saying he was like this because he was selfish. He very well might just not have had great court awareness, for all I know he lacked great peripheral vision? But even if we fixed him in that he passed sooner, he just wasn't good as a passer. That is seriously from a technical skills list his only weakness but it's a big deal.

We fully agree he had the tools to be vastly better, but I could say the same about Rasheed Wallace. Sheed could have been a top 20 all time guy with his skill set. It didn't happen. Could Pop or Jackson have fixed that? Who knows.

Given what Hakeem showed he was capable of at certain points of his career...I don't think the above is quite fair.

This isn't a case of someone needing to be vastly better...this is a case of trying to figure out if a player was capable of improving certain aspects of their game given better coaching and teammates throughout their careers.

We obviously can't answer this, but there was very little I saw in Hakeem that would prevent him from improving in certain areas you are talking about.

Again though...even with some flaws...in no way was Duncan a "clearly better" offensive player.

[BuffaloBill]

[QUOTE]The Spurs won because of Tim Duncan, a guy I could never break. I could talk trash to Patrick Ewing, get in David Robinson

[Spurs5Rings2014]

It's going to be a long season ...

7th most impactful player in the entire league at age 40+.



I may have to move him up in my top 5.

[dhsilv]

Given what Hakeem showed he was capable of at certain points of his career...I don't think the above is quite fair.

This isn't a case of someone needing to be vastly better...this is a case of trying to figure out if a player was capable of improving certain aspects of their game given better coaching and teammates throughout their careers.

We obviously can't answer this, but there was very little I saw in Hakeem that would prevent him from improving in certain areas you are talking about.

Again though...even with some flaws...in no way was Duncan a "clearly better" offensive player.

I long ago decided that if a guy never completely gets it, it's on him. I'm not sure if it was an IQ thing, culture, lack of early development, teammates, coaches, or personality, but he just never "got IT". I've found betting against a guy who doesn't seem to "get it" is the right bet nearly always.

But I guess we have to agree to disagree. I just can't see a scenario where Hakeem is a better 5 on 5 offensive player...in the NBA. Hakeem might look better in china or something.