The 80's Larry Bird GOAT Conversation

[Da_Realist]

Put Mj on the 1980 Celtics instead of Bird, do they improve by over 30 games from the year before. I think not.

Put Bird on the 1980 Lakers team instead of Magic, the question would be would they have lost a game.

Also I give MJ credit for being the Greatest Shooting Guard in history and it's not even close but he at no time was anywhere close to being the passer that Larry and Magic were. It's like all the idiots out there saying Lebron James is a better passer than Larry and Magic, it's just stupid.

Here's something posted by ISH's Bush4Ever regarding that turnaround

-- Simple.

Because the talent on the early bulls team relative to the league was extremely low.

You cited Larry Bird's turnaround in a previous post. However, Bird wasn't the only cause.

1. They got rid of malcontent Bob Macadoo.
2. They picked up a real coach in Bill Fitch, which ushered in a whole new attitude (if you don't know the Sidney Wicks story, it's a good one...google it)
3. They picked up a real coach, which allowed Dave Cowens to get back to full time playing duties
4. They picked up ML Carr, who at the time was an extremely good defensive player (led the league in steals).
5. They had a newly healthy Nate Archibald, who played a good chunk of the 1979 year injured.

There are more things going on than simply adding a player (usually).

[Duncan21formvp]

Put Mj on the 1980 Celtics instead of Bird, do they improve by over 30 games from the year before. I think not.

Put Bird on the 1980 Lakers team instead of Magic, the question would be would they have lost a game.

Also I give MJ credit for being the Greatest Shooting Guard in history and it's not even close but he at no time was anywhere close to being the passer that Larry and Magic were. It's like all the idiots out there saying Lebron James is a better passer than Larry and Magic, it's just stupid.

Bird lost 7 series with HCA, the most of any all time great and never won any series without it. In fact he got swept with HCA in 1983 to the Bucks a team that hadn't won anything. Lost game 7 at home to the Sixers before Moses Malone even came.

[Kblaze8855]

When you win 61, 62, 63, 56, 62, 63, 67, 59, and 57 games(before getting hurt and the team only manages 42)...you are pretty much always gonna have HCA. Losing with it just means you dont make every finals or win every title. When you have to manufacture weak criticisms like that it says more about how great the subject is than anything.

[AlphaWolf24]

When you win 61, 62, 63, 56, 62, 63, 67, 59, and 57 games(before getting hurt and the team only manages 42)...you are pretty much always gonna have HCA. Losing with it just means you dont make every finals or win every title. When you have to manufacture weak criticisms like that it says more about how great the subject is than anything.

from yo keyboard straight to the haterz ears....

[Duncan21formvp]

When you win 61, 62, 63, 56, 62, 63, 67, 59, and 57 games(before getting hurt and the team only manages 42)...you are pretty much always gonna have HCA. Losing with it just means you dont make every finals or win every title. When you have to manufacture weak criticisms like that it says more about how great the subject is than anything.

And when you have HCA you are supposed to win that series as well especially against teams that are less proven than you are. Some of those you can excuse like 1985 vs the Lakers, but 1983 vs the Bucks, 1982 vs the Sixers are not excusable. Nor is 1990 vs the Knicks.

Here are the top 10 with HCA

[code] vs 50 win teams/non-50 win teams
Jordan: 14-0 (100%)/ 10-0 (100%)
Jabbar: 11-3 (79%)/ 23-2 (92%)
Russell: 10-0 (100%)/ 12-1 (92%)* missed most of series lost
Wilt: 4-3 (57%)/ 9-2 (82%)
Magic: 9-2 (82%)/ 20-1 (95%)
Bird: 10-6 (63%)/ 14-1 (93%)
Kobe: 18-2 (90%) / 6-0 (100%)
Olajuwon: 4-0 (100%)/ 5-2 (71%)
Shaq: 11-3 (79%)/ 13-2 (87%)
Duncan: 13-4 (76%)/ 8-1 (100%)[/code]

[Kblaze8855]

Excusable? Its sports. Losing will happen. When you have the best record in the conference or entire NBA many many years you will lose with HCA at times. He won 3 rings. He has nothing more to prove. 30 years later you are calling it inexcusable to lose to a 58 win team with 4 all stars making its 3rd of 4 finals trips...in a 7 game series...having lost one game by a single shot.... because you had HCA?

Really...

Who gives a ****?

Just scraping the bottom of the barrel for something to hate on.

[OldSchoolBBall]

He scored more points. Which is a very different thing. Bird is a better passer by a lot more than Jordan is a better scorer. Case could very very easily be made that they are roughly equal scorers.

No, such a case can't be made. And I say that as someone who believes that Bird is a top 5-6 scorer all time. Jordan had significantly higher volume AND efficiency, and maintained peak scoring for far longer. If Brd was MORE efficient than MJ at lower volume, you might be able to say that, but that's not the case. Jordan was averaging 4-7 more ppg in his 4 best scoring seasons on better efficiency than Bird. That's a significant difference, and one that can't be explained away by saying "if Bird took more shots he would have scored the same amount of points." Yes, Bird likely could have averaged 32-34 ppg if he wanted to and took more shots, but not at the 53-54% FG/60-61% TS efficiency that Jordan did. Therein lies the difference. A 4-7 ppg difference on equal/better efficiency is a BIG deal at the high end of ppg.

Jordan was also a far superior playoff scorer.

[305Baller]

Bird is a great player, best skills of all-time maybe.

But Jordan's dogged determination and smooth mid-range and slasher game wins overall... why? 6 titles.

[eliteballer]

Put rookie Jordan on the 1980 Lakers and they win a title as well.

Jordan gonna play center? Not to mention he was 2 years older as a rookie.

and lets be honest about Bird. Great, great player, top 5 and as good as everyone says is.

BUT

All that talk in the early to mid 80's has A LOT to do with east coast media hype and being the "great white hope"

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan gonna play center? Not to mention he was 2 years older as a rookie.

No you idiot, he wouldn't have to "play center" to win a title on the 1980 Lakers. He would win a title on the 1980 Lakers playing with the BEST player in the league in KAJ along with tons of other talent. Give me a break.

Jordan was also 1.5 years older than Magic as a rookie, not 2 years (20 years and 3 months versus 21 years and 9 months).

[eliteballer]

Magic 1980 Finals stats:

21.5 ppg, 11.2 rebs, 8.7 ast, 2.7 stl 57 FG% 88 FT%

Jordan 1985 playoff stats:

29.3 pts, 5.8 reb, 8.5 ast, 2.7 stl 44 FG%

[Kblaze8855]

No, such a case can't be made. And I say that as someone who believes that Bird is a top 5-6 scorer all time. Jordan had significantly higher volume AND efficiency, and maintained peak scoring for far longer. If Brd was MORE efficient than MJ at lower volume, you might be able to say that, but that's not the case. Jordan was averaging 4-7 more ppg in his 4 best scoring seasons on better efficiency than Bird. That's a significant difference, and one that can't be explained away by saying "if Bird took more shots he would have scored the same amount of points." Yes, Bird likely could have averaged 32-34 ppg if he wanted to and took more shots, but not at the 53-54% FG/60-61% TS efficiency that Jordan did. Therein lies the difference. A 4-7 ppg difference on equal/better efficiency is a BIG deal at the high end of ppg.

Jordan was also a far superior playoff scorer.

Well what else would you say? You dont care about thinking past any number that makes Jordan look good because thats pretty much your only purpose. you have been doing this shit for 7 or 8 years.

The "Yea he could shoot more to score more but he wouldnt shoot as well" case is the obvious one to make...but not to someone like me who doesnt need to see their numbers to judge them....because I sat there and saw it live. At times live in person.

For players on their level the numbers are pretty much what they decide to make them. I dont care any more that Bird scored 21-25 a game some years than I care that Jordan didnt score over 35 after the 80s even though he was just as good a scorer or better. It means NOTHING to me. At all.


If you look at how Bird(and Jordan) scored it should be clear that they could shoot more...and shoot a better percentage because of it. The Bird I remember was pretty much chilling taking shots as they came and going long stretches without actually setting out to create his own shot to score in a real isolation situation. If he just set out to get and make a shot...not to run offense and get guys open and take long jumpers and all....if he just decided to go score...he could easily shoot more and shoot better.

Jordan was the same way. He shot better putting up 35 a game than he did putting up 30. And it wasnt as simple as defenses getting a little better(though they did). He played more team ball. If Jordan or Bird set out to just make a shot for themselves 15 times a game and take 10 more in the flow they probably shoot better on those 25 shots than if they play in the flow and take 20 shots.

It wasnt by chance Bird shot the highest percentages of his career when he shot the most. he shot 52 and 53% in his highest shot attempt seasons.

Attacking Bird scores at a better rate than passive "one of the guys" bird just like attacking jordan did.

If Bird knows his team needs him to go out and score his ass off he could easily score more...and he wouldnt be shooting worse to do it. More of his shots would be on the block, and triple threat jumpers, and going across the lane than the 19 footers and quick shots that lowered his percentages.

I dont believe bird was incapable of doing late 80s Jordan scoring numbers any more than i believe first 3 peat jordan couldnt score 35-37 a game like 80s jordan did.

But we cant really discuss that too deeply because you arent talking about ability to apply skills to scoring. you are talking about shit like true shooting percentages and such because thats what people argue with...because people for the most part dont know what they are talking about and numbers cant be debated.

It makes it...simple. but I dont do simple at the expense of what I can see.

And ive seen Bird play within the flow of the offense for 30 minutes then just as I thought we would win....stop...and go one on one 4-5 times in a row and make 3 shots and get fouled on another and make the FTs to beat us.

He...like most great scorers....could score much more and on high percentages if they chose to(or needed to) disregard their teammates.

Guys like Jordan...bird...even Kobe, AI, and Gervin...all of them could shoot better than they do/did...if they just set out to get themselves the best shot again and again.


But playing in an offense...especially an offense with other capable players....it limits your reason to do that. So more of your shots end up being less effective jumpers or quick moves that wont work at the rate that a guy like Bird...or Jordan..or....Pierce...or a lot of guys...can really score.

Guys like Bird dont shoot 48% because some guy can stop them over half the time. And Jordan didnt shoot what he shot in the 90s because only half the time(or less) could he make the shot were he just working into the best position to score and then shooting/attacking like he did in the 80s.

They shoot what they shoot as much because of their team and the offense as anything.

Birds great teammates kept defenses honest...at the same time they greatly limited his chances to really set out to just make basket after basket as he was more than capable of.

So in the end...I dont care what his numbers were.

Bird was one of the best/most crafty post players ive ever seen, one of the best midrange shooters ive ever seen, and couldnt be left open outside. Add to that an all time elite off hand, every move in the book from hooks, and floaters, and stepbacks to actually being able to make behind the basket jumpers....because he worked on them...and absurd body control in the air for his hops...

He was as good a scorer as ive ever seen. Period.

He wasnt better than Jordan. Nobody is better than Jordan. But ive seen nothing to suggest anyone is better than Bird either. Not as a scorer.

If Bird did the Dantley thing and just sought out ISOs and demanded the ball in his sweet spots to attack 30 times a night he would have been doing 30+ a game on 55+ shooting too.

Same for Jordan.

The numbers dont matter much to me for that reason. Its thinking like yours that has people saying shit like this:

I'll tell you what...how about TS% and eFG% then?

Speaking just in terms of offensive production...and either in PEAK or CAREER, who was a more EFFICIENT shooter and really, a BETTER SCORER?

Bird, or Adrian Dantley?

Dantley BLOWS Bird AWAY...

Yes Adrian Dantley WAS a better offensive player. The NUMBERS do not lie. Just because Bird had better range does not make him a better offensive player.

Im not the type who cares about such things.

I can explain quite simply without use of any numbers why MJ is a better scorer than say...Lebron. Who at times scores about as much as Jordan in the 90s.

I could not do that to explain why hes a better scorer than Bird. And if I tried I couldnt conclude its a major difference.

I just never saw it. I saw a major difference in numbers. But....

[BEAST Griffin]

Magic 1980 Finals stats:

21.5 ppg, 11.2 rebs, 8.7 ast, 2.7 stl 57 FG% 88 FT%

Jordan 1985 playoff stats:

29.3 pts, 5.8 reb, 8.5 ast, 2.7 stl 44 FG%

Kobe-esque shooting. I'm disappointed Michael.

[Duncan21formvp]

Magic 1980 Finals stats:

21.5 ppg, 11.2 rebs, 8.7 ast, 2.7 stl 57 FG% 88 FT%

Jordan 1985 playoff stats:

29.3 pts, 5.8 reb, 8.5 ast, 2.7 stl 44 FG%

With prime Sidney Moncrief the guy who already had 2 DPOY's on him as a rookie while Magic benefited from having a guy who won league mvp and who averaged 33 ppg/15 rpg and 5 bpg in the finals.
Not to mention had Jamal Wilkes who had 37 pts and 10 rebounds in that game 6 as well.

[Micku]

It's actually too bad that Bird had that back injury and the finger injury he had before his NBA career could start. It would be a interesting "what if" that stuff never happen to him. All of them happen off the court I believe.

It's nice to think Bird's could've been better than he actually was in his NBA career, but it's only a "what if" thing.