The 80's Larry Bird GOAT Conversation

[greymatter]

Passing wise, u can say Larry is better than MJ. But not by much cause MJ was a brilliant passer as well.

Uh, no. Not even close. Bird was leaps and bounds better at passing than MJ ever was.

MJ though i would take over both clearly. Bird and Magic is always an arguable debate.

Celtics went from 29 to 61 wins in Bird's rookie year.
Lakers from 47 to 60 in Magic's.
Bulls from 27 to 38 in Jordan's.

Jordan is only clearly better in terms of video game type ratings of overall skillset. It's clear that Bird/Magic were vastly superior in terms of being able to be built around and how much they elevated their team/mates.

[bizil]

Uh, no. Not even close. Bird was leaps and bounds better at passing than MJ ever was.



Celtics went from 29 to 61 wins in Bird's rookie year.
Lakers from 47 to 60 in Magic's.
Bulls from 27 to 38 in Jordan's.

Jordan is only clearly better in terms of video game type ratings of overall skillset. It's clear that Bird/Magic were vastly superior in terms of being able to be built around and how much they elevated their team/mates.

Are u sure that Bird was LEAPS AND BOUNDS better than MJ passing the pill? When MJ had PG type handles and pace in his game. Something Bird never had! I'm talking the evolution of MJ and not when MJ first came in the L.

What do u mean VASTLY superior in terms of building around a team. And how much they elevate their teammates? Bird and Magic played around multiple HOFers in their prime! MJ just had Pippen and Rodman. Rodman was a non factor on offense to begin with. Give MJ the greatest frontline of all time. Or give MJ arguably the greatest center of all time. And studs like Worthy and McAdoo. Or underrated guys like Wilkes, Nixon, and Scott. MJ NEVER had the wealth of talent Bird and Magic played with.

MJ is a top 5 perimeter defender of all time on top of it. U could NEVER put Bird or Magic on island to guard guys like Drexler, Wilkins, King, English, etc. MJ, Coop, and Pip u could. MJ elevated the Bulls so much it wasnt funny. Actually man for man, the Bulls had one of the weaker casts to win an NBA title. They did cause u have MJ and Pip that could do ANYTHING on the court. And were freakish athletes on top of it. As good as Bird and Magic were, the couldn't do EVERYTHING on the court. MJ, Pip, and to an extent Drexler paved the way for freakish athletes who had damn near if not just as much all around ability as the Magics, Birds, Hondos, and Barrys. It then led to the Kobes, Brons, Hills, Penny, TMacs, and Wades. Imagine a combo of a Big O, Havlicek, or Barry with the freakish athletic ability of a Dr. J, Hawkins, or Baylor. That's what u got with an MJ. If u think Magic or Bird elevated teammates better than okay. But to say vastly or clearly u are sadly mistaken. MJ was such a freak it seems the all around aspects get slept on. As Kenny Smith says, MJ was the first freak athlete that had FLAWLESS fundamentals. That's why his ranking on the video games is so high. LMBAO!

[bizil]

If he were to have had 15-16 back injury free seasons, he'd still be in the conversation as GOAT.

Bird is a top 5-6 GOAT of all time! And the GOAT SF of all time! I mean damn it's not much more he can do! Sure if he had those many seasons, peak value wise would he be considered better than MJ? Would Boston have won anymore rings? Maybe. But the Bulls had such a machine that I don't see the Celtics ****ing with that at that point. If anything a healthy Bird AND Lenny Bias could have put LB in the convo. Bias and Bird would have been devastating. Mchale and Parish aged pretty good. A squad with Bird, Bias, McHale, Parish, Fox, X Man, Douglas, etc. in the early 90's. would have beat the Hornets in that round. From there in a given season they could have beat the Bulls at time. Bias could have taken up the slack for Bird scoring wise when LB's back went out. And in theory, Bird wouldn't have had to bust his ass as much with a guy with Bias. U could have went Bias at SF and Bird at PF. Or at times Bias at SG and Bird at SF. Bias would have been a perennial All Star u could build around.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Yes, Bird was leaps and bounds a better passer than Jordan. Jordan was an excellent passer when he decided to pass later in his career. Bird was a God at passing from the first day of his career to the last. Magic and Bird are basically equally great in my mind although Magic got the upper hand on Bird all but once. The Lakers threw away 2 games in the 84 series and still had a chance to win it in 7. It really could have been Magic-4, Bird-0. I love Bird.......I prefer Magic.

You can't appreciate how good Bird was unless you saw him play in his prime. There's a reason his name is Larry Legend.

[Micku]

Uh, no. Not even close. Bird was leaps and bounds better at passing than MJ ever was.



Celtics went from 29 to 61 wins in Bird's rookie year.
Lakers from 47 to 60 in Magic's.
Bulls from 27 to 38 in Jordan's.

Jordan is only clearly better in terms of video game type ratings of overall skillset. It's clear that Bird/Magic were vastly superior in terms of being able to be built around and how much they elevated their team/mates.

Well...to be fair, Magic did have Kareem, Wilkes, and Nixon. Kareem being MVP and the best center in the league. What Magic did was just spark them and he was just what they needed. And the Lakers did have Cooper in Magic's rookie year too. Obviously Cooper became better and better with the defensive end and became one of the best perimeter defenders. But he wasn't so bad in Magic's first year. But Magic had a fantastic rookie year and his impact was great and felt, but he did have more talent on his team than Jordan did in his rookie year.

Bird was impressive of what he did with the Celtics. He was the man from the beginning. While Bird did have Tiny and Maxwell, I don't think there was any real difference in the season where they had 29 wins. Bird's impact on the Celtics was great in one of the best improvements on a team. They didn't get Mchale or Parish until the following year when they won. But Mchale was a rookie then. Dennis Johnson came later.

I think Magic and Bird are better team players too. Jordan was criticize for being a one man show in the beginning of his career. It would've been nice to see what could Jordan do with the 1986 Bulls team with Woolridge, Gervin and Oakley in the lineup, but Jordan was injured.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Uh, no. Not even close. Bird was leaps and bounds better at passing than MJ ever was.

Hyperbole. Clearly better? Yes, no question. Not "leaps and bounds better." Leaps and bounds better is like Magic versus Chris Kaman. You're talking about a guy (Jordan) who had 4 playoff series of 8 apg and another of 11.4 apg.

Celtics went from 29 to 61 wins in Bird's rookie year.
Lakers from 47 to 60 in Magic's.
Bulls from 27 to 38 in Jordan's.

That's because the Celtics and Lakers already had good players. When you have good players, adding a GREAT player can make more of a difference.

Jordan is only clearly better in terms of video game type ratings of overall skillset. It's clear that Bird/Magic were vastly superior in terms of being able to be built around and how much they elevated their team/mates.

lol @ this hyperbole. "Vastly superior" my ass. Put rookie Jordan on the 1980 Lakers and they win a title as well. Give me a break. Superior ability in that respect? Sure, it can be argued and is reasonable due to their playing styles. But using words like "vastly" is incorrect.

[Psileas]

At the time, Bird clearly had a case for the GOAT. Fundamentals wise, Bird could be the GOAT. However once MJ came along, you had a guy pound for pound better than even Bird fundamentals wise. Other than deeper consistent range on his shot, what could Bird do better than MJ clearly pound for pound? Passing wise, u can say Larry is better than MJ. But not by much cause MJ was a brilliant passer as well. MJ's midrange game is arguably the greatest of all time. Throw in freakish athletic ability and top 5 ever perimeter defensive skills, MJ in the end is the GOAT. Bird however along with MJ, Magic, and Kobe are the premier perimeter players of all time.

What are "pound for pound" fundamentals supposed to mean in basketball, exactly? This isn't weightlifting or boxing. Hell, passing and weight have a negative correlation, shooting range and weight the same, stealing and weight the same and there's no reason to believe that scoring and weight have any meaningful positive correlation, either, if they even do. How about "inch of vertical for inch of vertical" fundamentals? It's not more flawed a method. Going by "pound for pound", Chris Paul is a strong GOAT candidate and so was John Stockton.

Having said that, I don't see much value in Bird's strong GOAT candidacy in the mid-80's, apart from just comparing his peak to the other GOATs' ones, which is valid. Partially this happened due to people anticipating that he might continue at the same clip and amass even more rings and MVP's, which didn't happen. And you're definitely not convincing me that the fact he was white was completely irrelevant, either.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Hyperbole. Clearly better? Yes, no question. Not "leaps and bounds better." Leaps and bounds better is like Magic versus Chris Kaman. You're talking about a guy (Jordan) who had 4 playoff series of 8 apg and another of 11.4 apg.



That's because the Celtics and Lakers already had good players. When you have good players, adding a GREAT player can make more of a difference.



lol @ this hyperbole. "Vastly superior" my ass. Put rookie Jordan on the 1980 Lakers and they win a title as well. Give me a break. Superior ability in that respect? Sure, it can be argued and is reasonable due to their playing styles. But using words like "vastly" is incorrect.

Like most of the posts in this place it's just your opinion, and stop using the word hyperbole. Use it once and you're good. Use it twice or more and you're a douche.

P.S. My posts at ISH are vastly better than yours by leaps and bounds.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Like most of the posts in this place it's just your opinion, and stop using the word hyperbole. Use it once and you're good. Use it twice or more and you're a douche.

P.S. My posts at ISH are vastly better than yours by leaps and bounds.

If you insist. But you're kidding yourself if you think that rookie Jordan wouldn't have won a title on the 1980 Lakers playing next to KAJ at his peak.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

If you insist. But you're kidding yourself if you think that rookie Jordan wouldn't have won a title on the 1980 Lakers playing next to KAJ at his peak.

Duly noted. Is rookie Jordan puting up 42/15/7 in the close-out game minus Jabbar? Doubtful.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Duly noted. Is rookie Jordan puting up 42/15/7 in the close-out game minus Jabbar? Doubtful.

Uhh, why not? Jordan was a better playoff player than Magic, and a better player overall. Maybe not 42/15/7, but 45+/12/7-8 ast is not out of the question. Regardless of what he does in game 6, again, you're kidding yourself if you don't believe that MJ would have won a title in 1980 with the Lakers.

[Duncan21formvp]

Duly noted. Is rookie Jordan puting up 42/15/7 in the close-out game minus Jabbar? Doubtful.

Jamal Wilkes put up 37 pts and 10 rebounds in that same game.

[colts19]

Hyperbole. Clearly better? Yes, no question. Not "leaps and bounds better." Leaps and bounds better is like Magic versus Chris Kaman. You're talking about a guy (Jordan) who had 4 playoff series of 8 apg and another of 11.4 apg.



That's because the Celtics and Lakers already had good players. When you have good players, adding a GREAT player can make more of a difference.



lol @ this hyperbole. "Vastly superior" my ass. Put rookie Jordan on the 1980 Lakers and they win a title as well. Give me a break. Superior ability in that respect? Sure, it can be argued and is reasonable due to their playing styles. But using words like "vastly" is incorrect.

Put Mj on the 1980 Celtics instead of Bird, do they improve by over 30 games from the year before. I think not.

Put Bird on the 1980 Lakers team instead of Magic, the question would be would they have lost a game.

Also I give MJ credit for being the Greatest Shooting Guard in history and it's not even close but he at no time was anywhere close to being the passer that Larry and Magic were. It's like all the idiots out there saying Lebron James is a better passer than Larry and Magic, it's just stupid.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Put Mj on the 1980 Celtics instead of Bird, do they improve by over 30 games from the year before. I think not.

Put Bird on the 1980 Lakers team instead of Magic, the question would be would they have lost a game.

Also I give MJ credit for being the Greatest Shooting Guard in history and it's not even close but he at no time was anywhere close to being the passer that Larry and Magic were. It's like all the idiots out there saying Lebron James is a better passer than Larry and Magic, it's just stupid.

The fact remains that MJ would have won a title on the 1980 Lakers. Deal with it.

Magic and Bird were also nowhere close to Jordan as scorers or defensive players. So that evens out.

[Kblaze8855]

Jordan is a far better defender than Bird. He isnt a far better scorer. He scored more points. Which is a very different thing. Bird is a better passer by a lot more than Jordan is a better scorer. Case could very very easily be made that they are roughly equal scorers. The difference is numbers which have a lot to do with situation. No case can be made that they are even on the same plane as passers and that isnt a numbers thing. Bird never averaged the 8 assists Jordan did. But its just...not close.