LeBron's 2007 ECF "help" versus MJ's first round losses "help"

[blood yes]

LeBron faced far inferior competition and let's not forget the Cavs were an elite defensive and rebounding team, a good recipe for successes in the 00s Eastern Conference as we seen Iverson, Kidd and Dwight make it to the Finals with a cast that didn't look that great on paper either.
Recap of the ECF:
Game 3: James carried the load with 32/9/9, but a big key was also Cleveland's defense holding Detroit to 82 points, funny how people often ignore that and act like basketball is just one side of the basketball, defense is half of the game after all. So with Cleveland's defense doing such a great job, LeBron didn't need that much offensive support, having 3 teammates in double figures(Z- 16, Pavlovic- 13, Gooden- 12) was more than enough.

Game 4: LeBron had 25/7/11, but again, Cleveland held Detroit to just 87 points and Daniel Gibson scored 21 points on great efficiency(4/7 from the field, 12/12 from the line) and Gooden also had 19/8.

Game 5: This is about as close as a player can come to winning a game by himself, we all know about Lebron's 48/9/7 game.

Game 6: Lebron had 20/14/8, though his efficiency was poor (3/11 FG, 14/19 FT), but again Cleveland's defense shut down Detroit. The Pistons scored just 82 points and Daniel Gibson led all scorers with 31 points on amazing efficiency (7/9 FG, 5/5 3P, 12/15 FT).

The fact that Daniel Gibson was the 2nd option on that team shows you how great LeBron was in 2007.

As an unbiased NBA ball fan, I can say that the 2007 game 5 ECF was one of the greatest games ive EVER seen, and this includes jordan/kobe/malone/shaq.

Ive never seen someone as young as BRon absolutely tear apart the Pistons dynasty in half, he pretty much took down a dynasty by himself.

In fact, id argue that 2007 Bron>Today's Bron, mainly because 2007 Bron was INCREDIBLY CLUTCH and could blow by anybody. Today, LeBron cant even blow by Boris Diaw

[juju151111]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]1985

In this series the 38-44 GOAT lost 3-1 to a team led by NBA legends Terry Cummings and Sidney Moncrief. What "help" did MJ get from his teammates, though?

MJ shot 43.6% but posted 29/6/9 while taking nearly half of the Bull's free throws. His "second option" scored 21 points per game on 50% and his "third option" averaged 15 a game.

1986

In 1986 the GOAT played in only 18 regular season games (the Bulls went 9-9) and the Bulls made the playoffs at 30-52. They draw the legendary 86' Celtics and promptly were swept.

MJ averaged 44/6/6 on 32 FGA and 13 FTA per game. His "second option" scored 21 ppg again while Charles Oakley contributed 10/10 on 55% and Dave Corzine 12/9 on 52%.

1987

MJ had his best statistical year (37/5/5) and led the Bulls to 40-42, again drawing the Celtics in the first round. The Celtics swept them again. MJ had 36/7/6 on 41.7% and 28 FGA and 13 FTA. Charles Oakley chipped in 20/15. "His" third scorer averaged 10 on 55%.

Recap

*MJ had a 20+ ppg second option every year.
*MJ had a 20/15 performance from a future all-star in one series.
*His third options did decent on limited shots.

To be fair, his teams were inferior in each case. After all, that is how seeding works: the better teams get the higher seeds so it is important to not go 38-44 or 40-42. Still, is the "help" MJ had any worse than, say:

*Your #2 option being hurt and averaging only 7/3/2.
*Having a #3 option who averaged 13.5/3/1.
*Having a #4 option who averaged 13/9.

Those figures are from when LeBron led the Cavs past the Pistons to reach the NBA Finals at age 22.

Thoughts on why LeBron did more with less help? I raise this because MJ fans have repeatedly insisted that MJ on the 07' Cavs would reach the Finals--even though the real life MJ was struggling to even get out the first round with similar rosters.[/QUOTEhttp://m.bkref.com/m?p=XXboxscoresXX199006030DET.html Go sit Ur dumbaas down

[Roundball_Rock]

This is how it supposedly went....

And he was promptly fired--despite leading his team to a higher round each year of his tenure...

This thread exists because MJ fans repeatedly claim--as a matter of fact--that MJ would be in the Finals with the 07' Cavs when the MJ of reality, not mythology, was nowhere near the Finals with such teams. As Collins knew, as did his assistant Jackson and MJ's teammates, a big problem was MJ hogged the ball. LeBron has always understood basketball is a team game. It is no coincidence MJ started winning as soon as the Triangle was implemented and Pippen became the primary ballhandler. It is funny, Wilt had to learn this lesson but people act as if MJ did not.

[juju151111]

And he was promptly fired--despite leading his team to a higher round each year of his tenure...

This thread exists because MJ fans repeatedly claim--as a matter of fact--that MJ would be in the Finals with the 07' Cavs when the MJ of reality, not mythology, was nowhere near the Finals with such teams. As Collins knew, as did his assistant Jackson and MJ's teammates, a big problem was MJ hogged the ball. LeBron has always understood basketball is a team game. It is no coincidence MJ started winning as soon as the Triangle was implemented and Pippen became the primary ballhandler. It is funny, Wilt had to learn this lesson but people act as if MJ did not.

Scrub east

[juju151111]

And he was promptly fired--despite leading his team to a higher round each year of his tenure...

This thread exists because MJ fans repeatedly claim--as a matter of fact--that MJ would be in the Finals with the 07' Cavs when the MJ of reality, not mythology, was nowhere near the Finals with such teams. As Collins knew, as did his assistant Jackson and MJ's teammates, a big problem was MJ hogged the ball. LeBron has always understood basketball is a team game. It is no coincidence MJ started winning as soon as the Triangle was implemented and Pippen became the primary ballhandler. It is funny, Wilt had to learn this lesson but people act as if MJ did not.

http://m.bkref.com/m?p=XXboxscoresXX199006030DET.html

[DatAsh]

And he was promptly fired--despite leading his team to a higher round each year of his tenure...

This thread exists because MJ fans repeatedly claim--as a matter of fact--that MJ would be in the Finals with the 07' Cavs when the MJ of reality, not mythology, was nowhere near the Finals with such teams. As Collins knew, as did his assistant Jackson and MJ's teammates, a big problem was MJ hogged the ball. LeBron has always understood basketball is a team game. It is no coincidence MJ started winning as soon as the Triangle was implemented and Pippen became the primary ballhandler. It is funny, Wilt had to learn this lesson but people act as if MJ did not.

The 07 Cavs have no chance of making the finals in the late 80s/early 90s. Different competition makes this thread somewhat irrelevant.

[Dresta]

Conclusion: you need teammates to hit shots to win an NBA championsip - wow, that's a big ****ing surprise

[Roundball_Rock]

The 07 Cavs have no chance of making the finals in the late 80s/early 90s. Different competition makes this thread somewhat irrelevant.

Of course they don't in the 80's. You can't compare a 30 team league to a 22 team league. If the 2007 Cavs were transported to 1985 you would have to improve their roster...What is being compared is teams relative to the league at the time.

It is interesting that MJ fans equate losing in the first round with losing in the Finals. This is like comparing a racer who finishes 2nd with one who finishes 22nd. LeBron dragged his team much further.

It is amusing and convenient how the 80's and 90's are presented as the apex of basketball competition. The 80's had several .500 teams in the conference finals. The 90's had only one great team. The 2014 playoffs, at least in the West, exhibited great parity.

It is interesting, on the one hand the competition is weak today and on the other the Heat are ultra-stacked yet the Heat are not romping through the playoffs every year like the Bulls routinely did or other teams in the 80's did. Which is it? Either the competition is underrated today or the Heat's strength is overrated.

Ultimately, the reason questions are being raised vis-a-vis MJ is the absurd mythology around him. According to that narrative it was basically all MJ--his teammates and Phil Jackson had nothing to do it (the best example of this is MJ fans acting as if Rodman had no role in the Bulls going for losing in the ECSF to champions--even though anyone watching at the time knows why the Bulls rolled the dice on the then-very risky Rodman, who was worth only a backup center in a trade due to the high risk level). You have one guy comparing the 10' Cavs to the 91' Bulls in just the previous post.

Iverson, Kidd and Dwight make it to the Finals with a cast that didn't look that great on paper either.

True--but other than Iverson, those other teams had second and third options as scorers who were better than what the Cavs had on tap (i.e. Lewis, Turk, Nelson in Orlando). It probably is no coincidence then that of that group that Iverson's team was the one hit wonder.

[Droid101]

LeBron faced far inferior competition and let's not forget the Cavs were an elite defensive and rebounding team, a good recipe for successes in the 00s Eastern Conference as we seen Iverson, Kidd and Dwight make it to the Finals with a cast that didn't look that great on paper either.
Recap of the ECF:
Game 3: James carried the load with 32/9/9, but a big key was also Cleveland's defense holding Detroit to 82 points, funny how people often ignore that and act like basketball is just one side of the basketball, defense is half of the game after all. So with Cleveland's defense doing such a great job, LeBron didn't need that much offensive support, having 3 teammates in double figures(Z- 16, Pavlovic- 13, Gooden- 12) was more than enough.

Game 4: LeBron had 25/7/11, but again, Cleveland held Detroit to just 87 points and Daniel Gibson scored 21 points on great efficiency(4/7 from the field, 12/12 from the line) and Gooden also had 19/8.

Game 5: This is about as close as a player can come to winning a game by himself, we all know about Lebron's 48/9/7 game.

Game 6: Lebron had 20/14/8, though his efficiency was poor (3/11 FG, 14/19 FT), but again Cleveland's defense shut down Detroit. The Pistons scored just 82 points and Daniel Gibson led all scorers with 31 points on amazing efficiency (7/9 FG, 5/5 3P, 12/15 FT).

OP on suicide watch.

[Young X]

If you think MJ couldn't have gotten that team to the finals, what team would they have lost too then?

[Calabis]

And he was promptly fired--despite leading his team to a higher round each year of his tenure...

This thread exists because MJ fans repeatedly claim--as a matter of fact--that MJ would be in the Finals with the 07' Cavs when the MJ of reality, not mythology, was nowhere near the Finals with such teams. As Collins knew, as did his assistant Jackson and MJ's teammates, a big problem was MJ hogged the ball. LeBron has always understood basketball is a team game. It is no coincidence MJ started winning as soon as the Triangle was implemented and Pippen became the primary ballhandler. It is funny, Wilt had to learn this lesson but people act as if MJ did not.

So you are going to compare arguably the best team in NBA History Celtics and the 80's era Bucks to the shit Lebron played in 2007 . Then you post this shit help numbers and downplay Lebron's help

Lebron against the Nets 24/7/8 on 42%, yet he still won the series

Jordan(rookie) 29/8/5 on 47% and lost the series to the Bucks

So you stat shit is illogical....look who the hell they played against, then look what the oppostion did to the Bulls

The Celtics you like to mention had their entire starting five avg more than 15 ppg, on high percentages, yet Jordan choked because he avg 35/7/6, during the series, while Oakley avg 20 ppg on 38% shooting from the post

Lol so Jordan getting to the ECF against the Pistons, was a result of the 13/7/3 Pippen was dropping(3 ast by the primary ballhandler)....damn this place is amazing

[Roundball_Rock]

So you are going to compare arguably the best team in NBA History Celtics and the 80's era Bucks to the shit Lebron played in 2007

This was acknowledged in the OP: he should not have been expected to beat those teams because his teams were losing teams. Where he is faulted is for not leading those teams to better records (outside of 1986) and thereby avoiding facing the #1 or #2 seed (like LeBron routinely does). Other top 10 all-time greats joined lousy teams and turned them around quickly. All of them were in at least the conference finals within 2-3 years--some of them got there or beyond as rookies. The only exceptions are the high school players, Kobe and LeBron.

The real question is why MJ was the #8 seed in the first place--LeBron was the #2 seed in 2007 and basically is #1 or #2 every year.

yet Jordan choked because he avg 35/7/6, during the series

Where was he accused of choking? I see no difference between MJ losing with great individual stats and Wilt. Yet one gets a pass while the other is crucified--and Wilt was not routinely losing in the first round as a low seed...

If you think MJ couldn't have gotten that team to the finals, what team would they have lost too then?

Detroit.

Pippen was not the primary ballhandler in 89' and Jackson was an assistant at the time. That was the year MJ had his career high in assists and was utilized in a Magic-type role--Magic with more scoring.

[LeBird]

This is how it supposedly went....

#teamplayer

[juju151111]

This was acknowledged in the OP: he should not have been expected to beat those teams because his teams were losing teams. Where he is faulted is for not leading those teams to better records (outside of 1986) and thereby avoiding facing the #1 or #2 seed (like LeBron routinely does). Other top 10 all-time greats joined lousy teams and turned them around quickly. All of them were in at least the conference finals within 2-3 years--some of them got there or beyond as rookies. The only exceptions are the high school players, Kobe and LeBron.

The real question is why MJ was the #8 seed in the first place--LeBron was the #2 seed in 2007 and basically is #1 or #2 every year.



Where was he accused of choking? I see no difference between MJ losing with great individual stats and Wilt. Yet one gets a pass while the other is crucified--and Wilt was not routinely losing in the first round as a low seed...



Detroit.

Pippen was not the primary ballhandler in 89' and Jackson was an assistant at the time. That was the year MJ had his career high in assists and was utilized in a Magic-type role--Magic with more scoring.

All Mj had to do to beat Detroit is have one great game. LJ was only decent the rest of those games. Mj won without HCA in 89. The Detroit LeBron faced was going downhill and old.

[Paul George 24]

This was acknowledged in the OP: he should not have been expected to beat those teams because his teams were losing teams. Where he is faulted is for not leading those teams to better records (outside of 1986) and thereby avoiding facing the #1 or #2 seed (like LeBron routinely does). Other top 10 all-time greats joined lousy teams and turned them around quickly. All of them were in at least the conference finals within 2-3 years--some of them got there or beyond as rookies. The only exceptions are the high school players, Kobe and LeBron.

The real question is why MJ was the #8 seed in the first place--LeBron was the #2 seed in 2007 and basically is #1 or #2 every year.



Where was he accused of choking? I see no difference between MJ losing with great individual stats and Wilt. Yet one gets a pass while the other is crucified--and Wilt was not routinely losing in the first round as a low seed...



Detroit.

Pippen was not the primary ballhandler in 89' and Jackson was an assistant at the time. That was the year MJ had his career high in assists and was utilized in a Magic-type role--Magic with more scoring.

weak east