Anyone on here honestly think Jordan impacts a game more than Wilt or Shaq?

[OldSchoolBBall]

At his peak ('89-'92) he certainly did.

[SamuraiSWISH]

At his peak ('89-'92) he certainly did.

You don't want to throw '93 in there for good measure? He was considered DPOY by coaches, put up 33 ppg. I'd say that season belongs in there. Possibly even 1996.

[TheReal Kendall]

They both impact the game in different ways.

I would say a guard of MJ's caliber impacts it more than a Big like Shaq due to the simple fact that Shaq has to rely on someone to throw him the ball on the block.

He can't consistently bring the ball up and do work on the perimeter.

MJ can do it all basically.

Barkley would be a another example of someone that can do it all also. He didn't have to rely on a guard to get him the ball.

You really can't go by wins cause MJ had a better team than young Shaq.

Wins and rings are a team accomplishment. No one man wins alone

[Young X]

Jordan from '88-'96 is the best, most impactful player to ever play the game. Period.

[TonyMontana]

The people that do are the ones that cant think for themselves.

Phil Jackson often goes underlooked in Jordan/Shaq comparisons. Jordan had Phil Jackson for the entire 90s while Shaq had bum coaches like Brian Hill, Kurt Rambis, and Del Harris. It is not a coincidence that the first year Shaq got a great coach like Phil, he put up the best season of any player in NBA History while Jordan had a guy like that his entire prime. Should Jordan have had Brian Hill and the Magic had Phil Jackson at head coach, we'd see the Magic with all of the banners in the 90s.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kM2OdZPVaw

Shaq is the best because his domination is effortless. You can practice as hard as you want, but you'll never be 7'1 with a 7'8 wingspan and be one of the top athletes in basketball history. All Shaq had to do was walk out there and hes guaranteed to be the best player on the court. If Jordan has a tough shooting night(much more common than a poor shooting night from Shaq) the same impact is not there because he doesn't rebound exceptionally well, he doesn't protect the rim, and he doesn't make his teammates better.

[I<3NBA]

It's a team game played 5 on 5, not 1 on 1.

I think this concept escapes people quite often.

okay. so how about we switch them with their championship squads?
Jordan in the 3 peat Lakers and Shaq in the 3peat Bulls. they play each other. who wins?

or how about we give them the exact same teammates and they play each other, who do you think wins?

[aj1987]

...

Thats what getting owned looks like

Picture 1: Neal is a horrible defender. Green is an average defender. From the picture, I can see green about to leave his defender, to help Splitter(?). Same with Neal. He's about to leave his man, to help Splitter, who's on Lebron.

Picture 2: The should be petrified to leave their defender. Chalmers and Miller were hitting their shots in the game. Miller hit a 3 to start the 4th (assisted by Lebron) and hit 2-2 for the game. He scored 8 on 4 shots. Chalmers hit a 3 (assisted by Lebron, again) in the opening seconds of the 4th as well. Chalmers, for the game, scored 20 points on 7/11 shooting. Including 4/5 from the three. The Spurs defenders would be stupid to actually sag off of them.

Picture 3: See 1 & 2. Neal is a horrible and lazy defender. Also, Miller was hitting his shots in the game.

Lebron plays with SHOOTERS, which is why he has open lanes..

to bad he doesn't open up Lanes for Dwade..

Picture 4 & 5: Wade scored 6 points in 4 minutes in the 3rd quarter. The same timeframe during which the pictures were taken. Lebron scored 5 points in the entire 3rd quarter. All of which were from FT's. Wade is one of the best finishers at the rim as well and has a much better post game than Lebron. That, coupled with the fact that Lebron's shot wasn't going in all game is why defenders might've ignored him on a couple of plays. Hence, the added defensive attention on Wade.
Also, Diaw was guarding Lebron. Diaw is also extremely lazy when it comes to defense, unless he's using his body to slow down players.

And yeah, what Silkk said is true (can't believe that I'm agreeing with him). The Spurs packed the paint the whole series. Neither Wade, nor Lebron were getting to the hoop consistently. There's a reason why the Spurs were rated the 3rd best defense in '13.

[SamuraiSWISH]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kM2OdZPVaw

My oh my ... all the offensive fouls. The elbows, the throwing of the weight.

So in essence, you just said coaches win in the NBA, and not players. A complete fallacy to anyone who pays attention to the sport.

[TonyMontana]

okay. so how about we switch them with their championship squads?
Jordan in the 3 peat Lakers and Shaq in the 3peat Bulls. they play each other. who wins?

or how about we give them the exact same teammates and they play each other, who do you think wins?

Im adding Shaq to the 94 Bulls that won 55 games without Jordan. Take note that this is a team that without Shaq took the Knicks to 7 games and lost the series on a controversial call. The Knicks would go on to lose in 7 games to Hakeems Rockets. They were a play away from winning a title.

C- Shaq
F- Horace Grant(28 years old)
F- Pippen
G- Pete Myers
G- BJ Armstrong

Best frontcourt of all-time? Toni Kukoc and Steve Kerr off the bench to provide spacing

vs...2001 Lakers with Jordan instead of Shaq(The team that went 15-1 in the playoffs)

C- Horace Grant(35 years old)
F- Robert Horry
F-Kobe Bryant
G- MJ
G- Derek Fisher

This would be an absolute blood bath. Shaqs Bulls would DESTROY them.

[TonyMontana]

My oh my ... all the offensive fouls. The elbows, the throwing of the weight.

So in essence, you just said coaches win in the NBA, and not players. A complete fallacy to anyone who pays attention to the sport.

Thats big boy ball for you. If you cant handle it get off the court.

Players matter, but to act like coaching is irrelevant is a joke. Phil Jackson is the best head coach in basketball history while Brian Hill is a guy that couldn't even get a .500 record in a single season as a coach postShaq. Here is his coaching record postShaq.

1997 Orlando: 24-25(was fired midseason because his players revolted against him LOL)

1998 Vancouver: 19-63
1999 Vancouvcer: 8-42
2000 Vancouver: 4-18(fired)

2006 Orlando: 36-46
2007 Orlando: 40-42

He is one of the worst coaches ever.

[SamuraiSWISH]

1998 Vancouver: 19-63
1999 Vancouvcer: 8-42
2000 Vancouver: 4-18(fired)

2006 Orlando: 36-46
2007 Orlando: 40-42

Do you realize the talent he had on those teams? As I said, in the NBA players win.

Players matter first, coaches influence. Of course a great coach helps, but great players can make even average coaches look good. Poor or average players can make great coaches look underwhelming. See Jerry Sloan.

Players. Talent wins in the pros. Not coaches.

And no, that isn't "big boy ball" ... that's called fouls that are being conveniently ignored.

Fact of the matter remains, if Shaq's dominance was so effortless, he would've won before Phil Jackson motivated him. Guy had star studded help and failed year after year.

And it wasn't the coaches fault. Excuses. Shaq is a career underachiever for being so "dominant" ...

Look at Montana ...

Shaq HAD Horace Grant, Penny Hardaway, and shooters / floor spacers in Nick Anderson and Dennis Scott and still didn't win.

[fpliii]

Damn, TonyMontana is feasting on this thread. He's going to town here.

I don't know if I'd take it to the same extremes, but a lot of what he's saying is true. I'll stop by later and see if this is still going strong.

[bdreason]

MJ is probably the only perimeter player I would include amongst the great bigs. I'm tempted to put Bird in that category as well.

[TheGreatDeraj]

At the end of games you want your best player taking the shot.

It is much easier for a guard to get open for the ball. It is also easier for a guard to get a shot off. And if they do get the shot off it's more likely the big guy is going to get fouled unless he is taking a jumper(not likely for shaq). So what if he gets fouled.


Big difference in a 85% guy and a 70% guy in the clutch.

Let's say you need two freethrows.

.85*.85 = 72.25% chance of making both freethrows

.7*.7 = 49% chance of making both freethrows - Big guy will hit both only about half of the time while the guard is at nearly 3 out of every four.

What if he gets fouled on back to back plays in the clutch?

.85^4=52% about half the time the guard will make all four

what about hitting at least 3 of the 4 free throws? That's certainly not ideal but still acceptable to put yourself in a good position to win.

P(k out of N) = (N!/k!(N-k)!*(p^k)*(q^(N-k))

n=4
k=3
p=.85
q=.15

P(3 out of 4) = (4!/3!(4-3)!*(.85^3)*(.15^(4-3))=36%

52%+36% = 88% chance of hitting at least 3 of the 4 freethrows. Nearly 9 out of every 10 games he would hit at least 3 of 4 clutch freethrows.

Only 12% of the time or about 1 every 10 games the guard would "choke" and miss two or more freethrows possibly costing them the game.




Now compare that to the big guy

.7^4=24% of the time the big will make all four


P(k out of N) = (N!/k!(N-k)!*(p^k)*(q^(N-k))

n=4
k=3
p=.7
q=.3

P(3 out of 4) = (4!/3!(4-3)!*(.7^3)*(.3^(4-3))=41% chance

24%+41% = 65% chance of hitting at least 3 of the 4 freethrows. 6-7 games out of every 10 games he would hit at least 3 of 4 clutch freethrows.

That means 45% of the time or every 4 or 5 games out of 10 the big guy would "choke" and miss two or more freethrows possibly costing them the game.

[jstern]

Damn, TonyMontana is feasting on this thread. He's going to town here.

I don't know if I'd take it to the same extremes, but a lot of what he's saying is true. I'll stop by later and see if this is still going strong.

Do you really think that? Or do you think perhaps it seems that way to you because he's saying things you agree with?