If you are the best player in 6 finals and win only 2, never talk GOAT

[shrempf_on_rice]

When you don't play any actual competition until the the Finals (or maybe even the ECF), 2/5 matters.

If he played in the Western conference he doesnt make it to the Finals 6 times. This year alone I can name 4 or 5 western teams that wouldve beat them.

[Kblaze8855]

Duncan had a great argument for being better than LeBron in 2007.

Anyway people spent 40 years calling someone who won two out of six finals the greatest ever and no one thought it was an unusual opinion to have until like 3 years ago.

Kinda funny how perspective changes around careers that haven't.

[LAZERUSS]

MJ didn't have an all-star teammate until 1990... But once he got that 1 all-star teammate, that's all he needed to go 6/6... Whereas Lebron got multiple all-star teammates in Miami and went 2/4..

That's why MJ's losses to the Bad Boys and 80's Celtics aren't counted against him - he never had an all-star teammate - but once he got JUST ONE, it was 6/6... No other player has done so much with so little.

I think you are under-valuing MJ's teammates.

No better cases than '92-93 thru '94-95.

In his '92-93 season, the team goes 57-25, and narrowly wins a game six in the Finals.

He retires, and has virtually no replacement...

and his team goes 55-27. Then, they lose a close and controversial seven game series to a Knicks team that went 56-26. The same NY team that barely lost a game seven to the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals...in a series in which they outscored them overall.

Then, MJ comes back fully rested in the last 17 games of the '94-95 season, but with the same roster, sans Grant, and they lose in six in the ECSF's.

Then they BOLSTER than team with Rodman, and reel off three more titles.

[3ball]

In his '92-93 season, the team goes 57-25, and narrowly wins a game six in the Finals.

He retires, and has virtually no replacement...

and his team goes 55-27.

Nothing in life is that simple - just looking at win totals is foolish - anyone can play that game, but it means nothing:

Lebron + Bosh were added to 47-win Heat = 58 wins (+11)
38-year old MJ was added to 18-win Wizards = 37 wins (+19)

Also, you're underrating how rare 3-peating is and the amount of superior strategy, team cohesion and hardened mental strength that is developed along the way.. Only 3 teams have ever done it.. Any team that has developed the level of strategy, optimal play and mental fortitude necessary to 3-peat, will be capable of winning 55 games in the anomalous situation the Bulls found themselves in 1994 when MJ abruptly retired (assuming everyone is in their PRIME).

Now if MJ retired in 1990, 1991, 1992?... Those teams don't win 55 games.. The supporting cast wouldn't have been as good at playing basketball together as they were by the END of the 1993 season..

But new fans won't understand the extent to which a 3-peat supporting cast has improved while being led to 3 consecutive rings, or the amount of optimal play, superior strategy, and mental fortitude THAT IS DEVELOPED while 3-peating, because new fans have only ever seen guys come up SHORT when trying to 3-peat..

and his team goes 55-27.

If MJ led this year's 55-win Memphis Grizzlies to a 3-peat dynasty while getting 2 MVP's, 3 FMVP's and leading the league in scoring every year, he'd be the undisputed GOAT..

Of course, MJ wouldn't need to average 33 PPG on the Grizzlies, because they have far more talent than the 1994 Bulls - this speaks to the little help MJ had on those Bulls teams, considering they required him to average 30+ PPG as a standard.
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[J Shuttlesworth]

Duncan had a great argument for being better than LeBron in 2007.

Anyway people spent 40 years calling someone who won two out of six finals the greatest ever and no one thought it was an unusual opinion to have until like 3 years ago.

Kinda funny how perspective changes around careers that haven't.

It's even funnier how until 2014, I never really saw people using finals records as a way to judge legacies.

It's also strange how people never consider the circumstances that come along with losing in a season. When people say 2/6, they are actually using 2007, a 22 year old kid leading his team to the finals, as some kind of negative. Same with him this year taking his team to the finals sand Love and Kyrie, and yet he's still "expected" to beat a 67 win team at full strength... Something that even mj didn't do

[Dbrog]

Of course, MJ wouldn't need to average 33 PPG on the Grizzlies, because they have far more talent than the 1994 Bulls - this speaks to the little help MJ had on those Bulls teams, considering they required him to average 30+ PPG as a standard.
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[catch24]

It's even funnier how until 2014, I never really saw people using finals records as a way to judge legacies.

It's also strange how people never consider the circumstances that come along with losing in a season. When people say 2/6, they are actually using 2007, a 22 year old kid leading his team to the finals, as some kind of negative. Same with him this year taking his team to the finals sand Love and Kyrie, and yet he's still "expected" to beat a 67 win team at full strength... Something that even mj didn't do

It's been that way since 2009, and even back in 2008 when I actually tried registering an account here. Use the search function, and look at all the tiresome arguments between Russell/Jordan, Russell/Wilt, and Kobe/Jordan.

Don't get me started with the "winning as the man" stuff.

[LAZERUSS]

Nothing in life is that simple - just looking at win totals is foolish - anyone can play that game, but it means nothing:

Lebron + Bosh were added to 47-win Heat = 58 wins (+11)
38-year old MJ was added to 18-win Wizards = 37 wins (+19)

Also, you're underrating how rare 3-peating is and the amount of superior strategy, team cohesion and hardened mental strength that is developed along the way.. Only 3 teams have ever done it.. Any team that has developed the level of strategy, optimal play and mental fortitude necessary to 3-peat, will be capable of winning 55 games in the anomalous situation the Bulls found themselves in 1994 when MJ abruptly retired (assuming everyone is in their PRIME).

Now if MJ retired in 1990, 1991, 1992?... Those teams don't win 55 games.. The supporting cast wouldn't have been as good at playing basketball together as they were by the END of the 1993 season..

But new fans won't understand the extent to which a 3-peat supporting cast has improved while being led to 3 consecutive rings, because they've only ever seen guys come up SHORT when trying to 3-peat..



If MJ led this year's 55-win Memphis Grizzlies to a 3-peat dynasty while getting 2 MVP's, 3 FMVP's and leading the league in scoring every year, he'd be the undisputed GOAT..

Of course, MJ wouldn't need to average 33 PPG on the Grizzlies, because they have far more talent than the 1994 Bulls - this speaks to the little help MJ had on those Bulls teams, considering they required him to average 30+ PPG as a standard.

First of all, I have MJ as one of the five players that has a case for GOAT status (Wilt, Magic, Kareem, and Russell being the others.) So it's not like I am just blindly ripping him.

But the '94 season is all anyone needs to know. MJ suddenly retired and the Bulls basically replaced him with scrubs. They STILL went 55-27, and barely lost a seven game series against a team that would lose in a close seven game series in the Finals. CLEARLY, the '94 Bulls were legitimate title-contenders withOUT Jordan.

And again, a fully refreshed MJ couldn't take the basic roster (sans Grant) to a title the next season. Why wasn't the '95 team, with Jordan basically replacing Grant, not as competitive as the '94 team?

[3ball]

Do you really want to compare the rosters man-for-man?.. 2015 Griz > 1994 Bulls and it's not close.

Marc Gasol/Zach Randolph = Pippen/Grant.

And the Grizzlies sweep the supporting players:

Mike Conley
Tony Allen
Jeff Green
Vince Carter
Courtney Lee
Tayshaun Prince

>

Toni Kukoc
BJ Armstrong
Steve Kerr
Pete Myers
Luc Longley
Bill Wennington

[LAZERUSS]

Do you really want to compare the rosters man-for-man?.. 2015 Griz > 1994 Bulls and it's not close.

Marc Gasol/Zach Randolph = Pippen/Grant.

And the Grizzlies sweep the supporting players:

Mike Conley
Tony Allen
Jeff Green
Vince Carter
Courtney Lee
Tayshaun Prince

>

Toni Kukoc
BJ Armstrong
Steve Kerr
Pete Myers
Luc Longley
Bill Wennington

First of all, I would take Pippen and Grant by a HUGE margin over Zach and the WAY over-rated Goobersol. Goobersol would have been a backup center in the 90's. Goobersol was butchered by a 6-6 SF at BOTH ends of the floor. DPOY my a$$.

The rest of the rosters are pretty much equal, except BJ Armstrong was better than any of the Memphis guards. Neither were outstanding. But excellent role players on the Bulls to be sure. And to be honest, if you go even deeper, the Bulls supporting cast was better. Williams and Cartwright were servicable players...and the quad of Longley, Wennington, Williams, and Cartwright would have pounded Goobersol.

[Keno]

using context tho, it's not really that bad.

- lebron had no business being in the 2007 finals, he was just that good carrying scrubs.
- wade sabotaged his 2011 finals causing the heat to lose.
- his 2nd option and 3rd option are out for the finals / have been out for most of the playoffs. if he manages to beat gsw this series, he's the undisputed official goat.

[nba_55]

First of all, I have MJ as one of the five players that has a case for GOAT status (Wilt, Magic, Kareem, and Russell being the others.) So it's not like I am just blindly ripping him.

But the '94 season is all anyone needs to know. MJ suddenly retired and the Bulls basically replaced him with scrubs. They STILL went 55-27, and barely lost a seven game series against a team that would lose in a close seven game series in the Finals. CLEARLY, the '94 Bulls were legitimate title-contenders withOUT Jordan.

And again, a fully refreshed MJ couldn't take the basic roster (sans Grant) to a title the next season. Why wasn't the '95 team, with Jordan basically replacing Grant, not as competitive as the '94 team?

[T_L_P]

using context tho, it's not really that bad.

- lebron had no business being in the 2007 finals, he was just that good carrying scrubs.
- wade sabotaged his 2011 finals causing the heat to lose.
- his 2nd option and 3rd option are out for the finals / have been out for most of the playoffs. if he manages to beat gsw this series, he's the undisputed official goat.

And you guys wonder why LeBron catches so much flak?

2007 is excusable (then again, games 3 and 4 were very tight with LeBron playing like shit and the Cavs had a top five defense even though LeBron wasn't truly elite on that end yet)

The Heat stood very little chance last season, and the Cavs have a monumental task this year.

But blaming 2011 on anyone but LeBron is laughable. The dude was scared to shoot and get outplayed by an old Jason Terry. It's one of the biggest chokejobs in NBA history, and there's no amount of Wade-blaming that will chance that.

2011 freezes him out of GOAT talks, though he will still have a strong top five case when it's all said and done.

[3ball]

misinformation itt

[3ball]

MJ suddenly retired and the Bulls basically replaced him with scrubs. They STILL went 55-27,

The 1994 Bulls roster had less talent than any other 55-win team.

Instead, they won based on strategy, teamwork and mental strength developed from 3-peating with MJ.

Now if MJ retired in 1989, or 1990?... Those teams don't win 55 games.. In those years, the supporting cast had barely BEGUN to develop the strategy, team cohesion and mental strength it took to 3-peat..

Also, 2+2 = 4... The Bulls needed MJ to lead the league in scoring for them to win all their championships - this means MJ had less scoring help than anyone in the entire league.. there's no way around that.
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