Kevin Johnson video and some other things....

[Glove_20]

I'm pretty sure all those players you named didn't put up those numbers shooting 50% (or damn near close to it) from the field. Only Wilt, Kareem, MJ, along with Doc and Bird I already named did that for an 8 year span. That actually put's him in even more exclusive company then just Doc and Bird.


-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
-Larry Bird
-Wilt Chamberlain
-Alex English
-Julius Erving
-Michael Jordan


Who doesn't belong in that select group or does Alex Englsih just shoot up the All-Time rankings because he was consistant over an 8 season span?

1. Well now your using 4 statistical categories...I used only 3, its much easier to narrow it down with more categories...

2. And once again, assists and passing is very important to a PG and is maybe the biggest category that defines a PG. However, I can't say the same for rebound/assists being the most important for a SF.

You see what I am saying, compare the importance of efficiency/passing to PGs vs. rebounds/assists to SG/SF/PF/C....big difference....


3. I could use just Points/Assists too

Isiah Thomas, Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson

are the only 3 to match KJ there...thats just 2 categories, and look, you have the 3 greatest PGs of All-Time



4. And remmeber, MAGIC JOHNSON was the only to actually exactly replicate the 20/10/50%. Oscar Robertson was close and aroudn the same numbers, so I added him too...

If we did the same with English, many of the guy's I mentioned at first would be addeed on...




KJ matches up ONLY to the top, in the categories that are most important to PGs

[Glove_20]

yes I am aware of that, and I was being cheeky to try and show how emotionally invested you are in this and how much of a waste it would be for me to put in an efforted reply.

I like KJ too, but I do not have the adoration to equate him with Zeke. Not in my world, I realize I cant change your world, and the propaganda front you put up is most impressive.

I'll leave it at that, but for future reference, please remember that numbers and quotes can be sourced and manipulated in all directions ad nauseum, so using them as the determining or damning factor does not make you an authority, it only makes you a know-it-all, and not in the good way.

:rollingeyes:

Wow someone is very narrow minded.


I'd say Isiah Thomas is ahead of KJ careerwise as well, the 2 rings seperate them.


However, everywhere else, its close or KJ has the edge.
His Prime Stats are better, and his peak stats are better (And yes they played in the same Era). And even in clutch Game 7s, KJ has outplayed Isiah by far. And you've been "proven" wrong how many times, every statement you make "Barkley didn't hurt KJ" or "Isiah didn't play in the Run/Gun days" have come up and backfired on you. You've looked like a complete joke.




I mean its definately comparable. Name me another player who has put up better numbers, on winning/contending teams, yet is WAY worse than a player who has put up worse numbers with 2 rings....

I mean, Isiah > KJ, but its definately comparable...All you have been is completely ignorant and have that "It can't be true" mentality...

Here are their 9 year Prime statistics:

KJ:

19.8ppg
10.0apg
49.7% FG
83.9% FT
3.3tpg


Isiah:

20.1ppg
9.9apg
46.2%
77.7%
3.8tpg


Obviously KJ has put up better numbers. And I am not a total statistical guy, so even though he has, I am not going to say KJ > Isiah. But its definately comparable, unless you can name me 2 other players, where 1 has put up better numbers (and that too on contending teams) yet is worse than the player with worse numbers. Not even "worse" but uncomparable

Go ahead and try, you won't be able to find one...Just because its "Kevin Johnson" and "Isiah Thomas" doesn't mean it can't be comparable. You need to remove your bias

[Glove_20]

Phoenix won more because they had a more talented team, so it's hard to measure that when doing a head to head matchup.

1992-1993 teams

Phoenix

Charles Barkley
Tom Chambers
Danny Ainge
Kevin Johnson
Dan Majerle
Cedric Ceballos
Mark West
Oliver Miller
Richard Dumas
(the rest don't matter)

Utah

Karl Malone
Jeff Malone
John Stockton
Tyrone Corbin
Jay Humphries
David Benoit
Mike Brown
Mark Eaton
(rest don't matter)

And I still think you need to show the stats up until 96-97... because they were still in their primes, and it's going to even the numbers more, like coin flip does if you flip it enough times.

1. When I have more time I will...but I just showed "Peak" stats, and there KJ outperformed Stockton easily

2. Barkley played only on the last 2 matchups...The rest KJ was without Barkley, yet they still beat Stockton's team plenty of times, because of KJ's domination on the offensive end over Stockton....

[IceMan2]

You got to at least respect what gmat says. he provides sources and makes everything he says credible. most of the time posters here just make things up as they go. also so the way he says everything really makes you listen as well. but yeah, at least he has sources backing up what he says, that makes what he says legit and credible

[AI Nuggets3]

after years of watching KJ throughout the 80s and 90s, (even owning his horrible Converse react-gel shoes about 15 years ago) sadly the first thing i always think about is how he got injured by getting hugged by his own teammate.

everytime i get in a KJ conversation with people thats always the first thing they bring up....the Barkley hug. wasn't he out for like 2 weeks after that? i hope he took off running the next time he hit a buzzer beater.

good career. he should make it in the 45-60 range on that ISH list.

[GMATCallahan]

Sure, 21 games per year. Which ever way you slice it, or try to avoid the issue by saying 'he never missed a playoff game', he was still injury prone. Very much so as a matter of fact. Broke the 80 game barriar once in his career, and only played 70+ games 33% of his career.

I'm not trying to 'interfere', I'm just making a point. A point that you don't really have to have seen Kevin Johnson play a lot to make. He was injury prone. That's a major career detriment.

Once again, just sayin.

But sure, feel free to continue to talk down to me as if I'm an infant. As long as it produces positive effects for youself, I see no reason for you to stop.

Dude, your facts are still wrong. In K.J.'s eleven-season career (1988-1998, not counting the time when he came out of retirement in the spring of 2000 to aid the Suns in an emergency situation), he averaged 66.3 regular season games per year, meaning that he missed less than 16 per season. Obviously, that's not great, but it's not 21, let alone your original number of 25.

Furthermore, K.J. played in 80 or more games twice, not once, and he played in at least 70 games in six of his eleven seasons (again, you can't count the time that he popped out of a two-year retirement on a moment's notice to help the franchise), which is 55% of the seasons, not 33%. See for yourself here:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...johnske02.html

And K.J. played in at least 67 games in seven of those eleven seasons, which is 64% of the time.

There's no doubt that K.J. was injury-prone, but there's also no need to misrepresent the facts to make your case.

By the way, I'll also note that K.J. had planned to retire in the summer of 1997, but the Suns managed to coax him back for one more year, especially since K.J. still dreamed of a championship. In '97-'98, he played in Phoenix's first dozen games before being sidelined for two months by arthroscopic knee surgery and only playing in 50 regular season games. His original instincts about knowing when his body needed to retire were thus correct, but the team's management wanted to milk him further. See the following interview with K.J. by the Suns' Fastbreak magazine, from the spring of 1997.

FB: Why are your instincts to walk away after 10 years?

KJ: I just felt all along that if I could get a certain amount of years in the league, have great years and still have my health when I walked away, that would be great. You know, I want to be able to run around with my kids someday and not have to ice for three or four days. Health is such a delicate thing that I would really like to have. And another reason why I got to this point was that I've been injured previously for so long -- those four years consecutively -- that the rehabilitation and stuff just got so frustrating for me. It was something that I just don't want to keep on doing at that same pace. And then lastly, it's always been a personal goal of mine to be able to walk away and not play just for the money and be at the top of my game.

FB: But don't you think you could play another year or two and still be at the top of your game and still have your health?

KJ: I think I could play another year or two and be at the top of my game, but the health part -- I can't speculate on that. I mean, only the Lord knows that.

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/00382486.html

I'll also note that K.J. missed the first 11 games of the '96-'97 season because of hernia surgery that fall. During the surgery, the Suns' doctors discovered a second hernia that they suspected may have been there for several years.

FB: Before this season you had hernia surgery. While operating, the doctors found a second hernia that they think might have been there for several years. Do you think that had something to do with all those injuries?

KJ: The two things I'd say, God's blessing this year and the hernia surgery, those two things may have really alleviated the hamstring and groin problems I've had in the past and it's just unfortunate that the hernia surgery didn't happen sooner. But I probably wouldn't be the same player I am today had I relied 100 percent on just my body. When you can't play physically sometimes, you have to use your mind a little bit more to compete and to achieve certain things. I'm just glad that this year I've been healthy for the most part and I think God and the hernia surgery you know really had a lot to do with it. It looks that way.

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/00382486.html

After missing those first 11 games that season (during which time the Suns went 0-11 despite featuring Sam Cassell and a rookie Steve Nash at the point, proving K.J.'s importance to the team), Johnson only missed one more game the entire year, and that was due to the flu. Overall, after the hernia surgery that removed the "secret," "hidden" hernia, K.J. played in 87 of his next 88 games including the playoffs, before undergoing the arthroscopic knee surgery. With today's improved medical technology and knowledge (1997 wasn't too long ago, but medicine and technology are always rapidly advancing), perhaps the doctors would have discovered that original hernia much sooner and spared K.J. many of his problems.

[GMATCallahan]

after years of watching KJ throughout the 80s and 90s, (even owning his horrible Converse react-gel shoes about 15 years ago) sadly the first thing i always think about is how he got injured by getting hugged by his own teammate.

everytime i get in a KJ conversation with people thats always the first thing they bring up....the Barkley hug. wasn't he out for like 2 weeks after that? i hope he took off running the next time he hit a buzzer beater.

good career. he should make it in the 45-60 range on that ISH list.

In the Suns' third-to-last regular season game of the '92-'93 season, Barkley nailed a miraculous last-second shot to give the Suns the victory. Oliver Miller had thrown the ball off the backboard from out of bounds with about a second left, Barkley caught it off the ricochet while off-balance, and he flung it through the hoop.

http://www.basketballreference.com/t...9930422&tm=POR

In running at K.J. and hugging him, Barkley lifted the diminutive point guard off the ground and they bumped knees, resulting a in a sprained MCL for Johnson that was supposed to sideline him for most, if not all, of the Suns' First Round series with the Lakers. He returned by Game Two, however (I write more about that series earlier in the thread, on the fourth or fifth page).

[GMATCallahan]

I though Stockton was as good at the time, and now...

It was arguable....

Kevin was more of a scorer, and neglected to get his team involved some of the time. Great player and all... Fantastic offensive game for a guard, while still being able to get guys involved, but sometimes he got into ballhog mode.

I think you are starting to over-rate him a bit.

Well, for whatever it's worth, here was the opinion of SLAM basketball writer Alan Paul in the February 2007 edition (no. 104) in an article titled "Shining Star: Whether with his scoring, passing or leadership, Kevin Johnson was always a difference maker. That's only been more true since he retired from the game."

KJ played under control at 110 miles per hour and always kept his teammates involved, never hogging the ball, even while seemingly able to score at will.

(The quotation is on page 100.)

The career Shots-to-Assists Ratios that "Glove" posted would also prove that point: K.J. 1.36:1.00, Steve Nash 1.39:1.00, Jason Kidd 1.40:1.00, Sam Cassell 2.10:1.00. All four point guards played on the '96-'97 Suns.

Of course, you're entitled to your perspective or memory, but there are other viewpoints out there.

[Chalkmaze]

Regarding 1993, you're talking about just one season. Overall, the Suns and Jazz averaged close to the same amount of wins during that era, but the difference was that K.J. dominated Stockton head-to-head, not just in wins, but in the individual matchup (thus leading to the wins). See my previous post where I provide detailed aggregate statistics and box scores.

In the mid-nineties, that trend started to lessen, in part because the Suns' perimeter shooting around K.J. began to decline and thus allowed Utah to help Stockton more readily by running multiple defenders at Johnson to cut him off, without paying as much of a price. [COLOR="Red"]Besides, by the '95-'96 season, the Jazz possessed a vastly better team than the Suns (examine the records), not because K.J. had fallen off vis-a-vis Stockton, but because of Utah's superior stability and shrewd development of its supporting cast.[/COLOR]

Thanks, you just made my point for me. KJ had much better overall talent to help him in the earlier years than Stockton had, eventually by around 95-96, the Jazz finally started to have a talented overall team, and John had a better supporting cast. That was why I wanted to see the rest of the stats which Glove was so sneaky to hide.

[GMATCallahan]

Here's another excerpt from that SLAM feature on K.J., the one that I mentioned in the prior post (page 100):

SLAM: You had seven double-figure scorers on that team [the '93 Suns, who reached the NBA Finals]. Was there ever any tension over touches? As the point guard, that would have fallen on you.

KJ: I took it as a personal challenge to make sure everyone was satisfied with his touches, and it was an easy job. We had a great group of guys who put the success of the team above any personal accomplishments, so tension was nearly non-existent.

[GMATCallahan]

Thanks, you just made my point for me. KJ had much better overall talent to help him in the earlier years than Stockton had, eventually by around 95-96, the Jazz finally started to have a talented overall team, and John had a better supporting cast. That was why I wanted to see the rest of the stats which Glove was so sneaky to hide.

Actually, that's not really true, at least not going by the respective success of the two teams.

Over two seasons in '96 and '97, the Jazz averaged 59.5 wins compared to 41.0 wins per year for the Suns, so the difference in support was overwhelmingly in Stockton's favor during that time. But over seven seasons from 1989-1995, Phoenix averaged 56.3 wins to Utah's 53.6 victories, so there wasn't a dramatic difference in the talent within the two organizations. In fact, in 1990, the Jazz won 55 games and the Suns won 54, and in 1991, the Suns won 55 games and the Jazz won 54, and in 1992, the Jazz won 55 games and the Suns won 53.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/UTA/

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/

In 1990, the Jazz were the fourth seed in the Western Conference and the Suns were the fifth seed, and in 1991, the Suns were the fourth seed and the Jazz were the fifth seed. In other words, the teams were neck-and-neck, and it was K.J.'s domination of Stockton from 1989-1993 that seemed to put the Suns over the top in head-to-head competition.

Remember, in 1992, K.J.'s best teammate was Jeff Hornacek, whereas Stockton's best teammate was Karl Malone. And in K.J.'s first full season in Phoenix in '89, the Suns (who hadn't won more than 36 games since 1984) rocketed from 28 wins in '88 to 55 in '89. Adding Tom Chambers had something to do with that, but then again, Chambers later called K.J. "the guy who made me the player I am," and for good reason (see how Chambers' individual honors and statistics soared upon joining K.J., as I noted earlier in the thread, possibly on the previous page).

[Chalkmaze]

Actually, that's not really true, at least not going by the respective success of the two teams.

They won because John and Karl were that awesome, not because of the rest of the talent on the team. I'm talking about straight up natural, raw talent for the game. You are posting this stuff, like I didn't watch the games or something... It's just somebody else's printed opinions. But I watched every game live, I have my own opinion on the subject.

Remember, in 1992, K.J.'s best teammate was Jeff Hornacek, whereas Stockton's best teammate was Karl Malone. .

Did I not say, overall talent??? You had a prime Jeff Hornacek scoring 20 ppg, 51 fg% 44 3pt%, prime Dan Marjerle, with 17 ppg, Tom Chambers with 16 ppg, Tim Perry with 12 ppg, Mark West who was pretty good defender... plus KJ scored a lot, and the players that didn't score were hustle players. Phoenix had had more talent.

other than John & Karl, there was Jeff Malone 18 ppg and Tyrone Corbin 11.6 ppg... and Mark Eaton who was having back problems, and played limited minutes and games. The rest were quite unremarkable, but John got the most out of them, because he got everyone involved and set them up, based on their strengths.

[GMATCallahan]

What's this 89-93 bull?
You are being selective... why not compare KJ's whole career, at least up until 96-97??? Go ahead... let's see the truth. You show that KJ was better offensively, and the FG% was close enough to be a wash, Stockton dominated in Assists and steals, and like I said... John did more to help the player's around him besides assists.

You've helped prove that KJ was a bit of a ball hog, even though he had good efficiency... I wonder what percentage Stockton's team mates shot in comparison to KJ's also, because John would play the percentages as well as anyone ever has. So KJ might have shot 50% and John might have shot 50%, but KJ shoots 10 more shots a game at 50% where John might have chosen to get the ball to someone who could have thrown in inside to Malone, who's shooting 55%. Anyway, those are unexplained things that are noticed when you watch games versus look at stat sheets.

Johnson scored and did great and all... but he was always looking to score the whole game, and only when he didn't have a clear look did he pass it out. He held and dribbled the ball a lot, while looking to score, where John would be looking to run the offense. John was better at letting other people get involved, and it wasn't just measured in assists.

Now, I'm not knocking KJ exactly, not in the grand scheme of things... but when you say he dominated Stockton head to head, there are a lot of things not shown on the stat sheet that went on. Stockton's role was to get his team mates involved, to let them touch the ball and work it around, KJ was looking to score, and while his stats went up, a portion of his teammates stats went down some. Stockton also played a lot of help defense and things, and helped his team get buckets off of screens, got a lot of deflections that went to his team mates that didn't count as part of his steals etc.

I watched the games, and I remember people thinking John got smoked because KJ had 30 points or whatever, while John would have 15 points on the same night, but someone else on the team would usually make up the difference. KJ took more shots is what it boiled down to, John could have shot more and got more points, but he always felt it was important to get everyone involved. I don't know about you, but I hate to hustle my ass off, playing defense, and rebounding, and then have someone else hogging the ball all the time, I become a lot more interested in playing hard when I get to be involved offensively in some manner, and have guys setting picks for me, and it motivates me to be more involved on defense.

Different type players, and while I sometimes questioned KJ's scoring first mentality, he also used that threat to get his team mates shots, and you had to respect his speed, quickness, and shooting... He was a tough player indeed... But he was a shoot first type player, while Stockton was a pass first type player, and while KJ may have better scoring stats, Stockton had better stats in assists, steals, and getting his teammates involved, and even during KJ's prime, it was still a pretty even matchup in my eyes.

I wouldn't say that K.J. was a shoot-first player or a scoring-first point guard per se (forget about just the comparison to Stockton). Maybe your memories of K.J.'s scoring are more vivid because he was one of the most explosive players in NBA history, but he was actually very balanced. After all, just because he wasn't as pass-first as Stockton doesn't mean that he was obsessed with his scoring or a ball-hog. Consider the following career averages in field goal attempts from the following star point guards of that era.

Kevin Johnson: 12.5

Magic Johnson: 13.2

Gary Payton: 14.0

Tim Hardaway: 15.1

Isiah Thomas: 16.2

K.J.'s single-season highest FGA average was 15.7 (his only time at 15.0 or higher), and yet that was less than Thomas' career average. It's thus not surprising that Sam Cassell made the following statement in the April 2000 edition of SLAM (no.41), in an article titled "Being Sam Cassell," by Scoop Jackson, page 84:

I'm not a point guard. I'm not a point guard.

Gary Payton is not a point guard. Timmy Hardaway is not one. Stephon [Marbury], Allen [Iverson], the list goes on and on. To me, we are lead guards, we all have scoring mentalities. A point guard's main responsibility should be distribution first. Jason's [Kidd] greatest asset is his creativity with passing the ball and Stockton is the same way. Point guards are not supposed to draw attention to themselves by scoring. Oscar Robertson, to me, was not a point guard. He was a guard, a guard that could do it all. Nate Archibald, a point guard. Kevin Johnson, a point guard. Isiah Thomas, lead guard. Make sense?

And Cassell knew what he was talking about, because he was intimately familiar with K.J. In 1994 and 1995, Cassell faced K.J. in 14 total playoff games, to the point where he later offered the following statement about his NBA education.

"Everybody gets a lesson in the NBA," Cassell said of his matchup with [Steve] Francis. "I got mine from (former Phoenix point guard) Kevin Johnson."

http://www.basketballreference.com/t...9991102&tm=hou

And then Cassell played with K.J. in Phoenix early in the '96-'97 season, so he learned even more about him then.

http://www.basketballreference.com/t...9961212&tm=uta

Referring to Cassell's classification of K.J. as a point guard rather than a lead guard, inside the Suns, people felt that K.J. was frequently too unselfish, that he spent too much time worrying about complementary players who weren't going to step up at crunch time, anyway. In Game One of the 1996 Western Conference First Round in San Antonio, K.J. posted 14 points on 5-8 (.625) field goal shooting and 4-4 (1.000) free throw shooting with 11 assists against just 2 turnovers.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...S19960426.html

But despite that efficient, downsized (Stockton-like, perhaps) performance, K.J. drew criticism from his coach, Cotton Fitzsimmons, after the Suns had lost by 22 points. Said Fitzsimmons after the game, "Kevin wants to get everyone involved, and we're down by 14. We don't need that."

(See Mike Tulumello's Breaking the Rules: A Season with Sport's Most Colorful Team: Charles Barkley's Phoenix Suns.)

http://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Rules...5791525&sr=1-2

In Game Two, K.J. followed his coach's edict and looked to score more, posting 21 points while still managing to deliver 16 assists. The Suns lost again, but this time the game was competitive and hanging in the balance until the end.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...S19960428.html

In fact, throughout his career, K.J.'s coaches had to periodically remind him to be more aggressive and look to score more. I'll post some relevant articles, abstracts, and quotations shortly, with the pertinent portions in bold.

Again, for K.J. to not have taken advantage of his scoring skills (skills that, for all his greatness, Stockton simply did not posses to anything like Johnson's degree) would have been a mistake. You play the game to win, not to see who best fits certain ideals, but aside from Magic Johnson, perhaps no one in NBA history offered a better-balanced package of scoring and passing than K.J. As Alan Paul told K.J. in the February 2007 edition of SLAM (page 100), "People talk about scoring point guards versus pass-first ones, but you combined both, seemingly with ease."

Indeed, I disagree with the notion that K.J. was "always looking to score," or that he only passed when he didn't enjoy a clear look himself. If you think about lead guards or playmakers of that stripe, you look at guys in today's game such as Allen Iverson, Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis, and Dwyane Wade, guards who average in the neighborhood of 6-8 assists. They're solid playmakers, but their limitations in that regard are fairly self-evident because of their nature as players. K.J., however, routinely finished in the range of 9-12 assists, and you can't do that if you only pass as a last option. K.J. was a dribble-playmaker, meaning that he looked to create plays and high-percentage shots off the dribble. "vcsgrizzfan," a Grizzlies fan from the ESPN NBA message board who actually started following basketball with the Buffalo Braves in the early 1970s, has written that aside from Magic Johnson, K.J. created more "good looks" than any point guard of his era (yes, that includes Stockton). And indeed, that ability of K.J.'s can be seen in the success that I previously documented of teammates such as Tom Chambers, Eddie Johnson, Jeff Hornacek, Dan Majerle, Tim Perry, Andrew Lang (among others), and how those same teammates didn't necessarily achieve the same level of effectiveness elsewhere. When K.J. drove to the basket, he wasn't like Iverson, just looking to score and then pass at the last moment if he had no other choice. Instead, K.J. was seeing the whole floor and keeping all his options open based on how the defense responded, and that's what accounted for his enormous assist averages.

Remember, in that 14-game head-to-head stretch between K.J. and Stockton that I documented with box scores and aggregate statistics, Stockton did not dominate K.J. in assists and steals. In those 14 games, Stockton averaged 12.5 assists to K.J.'s 10.8 and 1.9 steals to K.J.'s 1.8. So, yeah, he held the edge, but K.J. was more than competing in those categories while blowing him out in the scoring department. Sometimes, K.J. could out-assist Stockton as well as out-score him, as in the following game from 1991 when K.J. recorded 37 points and 20 assists against Utah.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...O19910402.html

That was just one of the six career games where K.J. posted at least 20 points and 20 assists in the same contest, and here are the others.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...L19890226.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...O19890415.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...O19900321.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...O19900403.html

http://www.basketballreference.com/t...9920331&tm=phx

In Game Two of the 1992 Western Conference First Round versus San Antonio, K.J. recorded 24 points and 19 assists, and he went for 21-19 in the following 1996 game.

http://www.basketballreference.com/t...9960419&tm=phx

You would have an argument if K.J.'s greater scoring wasn't helping his team. However, the Suns went 10-4 versus the Jazz during that stretch and K.J. was actually more efficient in shooting the ball, 52% to Stockton's 50% (again, see the aggregate statistics that I posted earlier). K.J. was almost matching Stockton in terms of successfully feeding teammates for baskets, and then scoring nearly twice as many points with slightly higher field goal and free throw percentages. Because he was so efficient and wasted so little time and action on the floor, he could score explosively while still involving and elevating his teammates. Remember, along with Stockton, Scott Skiles, Nate McMillan, and Jason Kidd, K.J. is one of the five players in NBA history to record at least 25 assists in one game.

http://www.basketballreference.com/t...9940406&tm=PHO

[GMATCallahan]

As Hornacek noted, K.J. would feed his teammates the ball.

Question: Nash, Kidd, or KJ (in their prime)? Who would you choose & why?-- Ed, Phoenix

Jeff Hornacek: Oh, heck, I’d take all three of them. They all pass you the ball. I’d take any one of those guys. Three top draft picks, you can pick any of them and you’d be alright. You like the versatility of Steve and Kevin because they shoot the ball a little better than Jason does. There were times, even when Jason was playing here, I had talked to him on the phone a couple of time to tell he to shoot it a few more times. He really wanted to pass every time. Any of those guys, you’d just love to play with.

http://www.nba.com/suns/interactive/email_experts.html

Now, I don't think that K.J. was a greater player than Stockton in the scope of basketball history, but he did have more in his tool box. I invite you to check out Hakeem Olajuwon's 1996 autobiography, Living the Dream.

http://www.amazon.com/Living-Dream-M...s=books&sr=1-1

Olajuwon went through both K.J.'s Suns and Stockton's Jazz in 1994 and again in 1995 on route to the championship both years, and he writes about both point guards in his book. Olajuwon compliments Stockton, but his praise is more matter-of-fact and somewhat dispassionate. But with K.J., you can see how pressured Olajuwon felt as a defensive center going up against a dominant point guard. Indeed, K.J.'s balance of scoring and passing off penetration could place the defense in a quandary. Referring to the first two games of the 1995 Western Conference Semifinals, Olajuwon notes that K.J. would drive and every time the Dream would leave his man to protect the hoop, Johnson would dish off and Phoenix center Joe Kleine would hit the standing jumper. And then Olajuwon notes that if he stayed with Kleine, K.J. would penetrate all the way for a layup (either for himself or someone else). The Dream's conclusion? "Boy, how are we going to beat this Phoenix team?"

Ultimately, K.J. burned Olajuwon and the Rockets both ways in those first two games. Johnson averaged 25.0 points and 12.5 assists while Kleine shot a combined 10-13 (.769) from the field as the Suns won in two straight blowouts by an average of 23 points. Meanwhile, Phoenix forward A.C. Green, who had played with Magic Johnson for six years in L.A., scored a career-playoff high 25 points in Game One (Green is another player, by the way, who set a personal career-high in points per game as soon as he joined K.J., with 14.7 in 1994 after never having averaged over 13.6).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...greenac01.html

Game Two, meanwhile, showed how K.J. would modulate his game based on the situation. In the first half, he posted 14 points and 10 assists to help the Suns open up a huge lead. Then in the second half, he went for the kill with 15 points and 2 assists, finishing with game totals of 29 points and 12 assists in the Suns' 118-94 victory.

[GMATCallahan]

They won because John and Karl were that awesome, not because of the rest of the talent on the team. I'm talking about straight up natural, raw talent for the game.

The Jazz' distribution of talent was a little more top-heavy than the Suns', but in terms of the overall amount, it was similar, hence the similar records. Would you not admit that Karl Malone was ultimately a far superior player to any of K.J.'s pre-Barkley teammates, even Tom Chambers? And don't sleep on the talent of guys like Thurl Bailey, Jeff Malone (a five-time 20-point scorer and a two-time All-Star before he ever played with Stockton, and one of the purest jump-shooters of his era), and Mark Eaton, a two-time Defensive Player of the Year who led the NBA in blocked shots per game four times and finished second in two other seasons.

The reason why the Suns were so successful against the Jazz during those years was that K.J., normally a 20-21-point scorer, averaged 30-31 against Stockton while shooting as efficiently as ever and maintaining his customary assists averages in the 10-11 range.

You are posting this stuff, like I didn't watch the games or something... It's just somebody else's printed opinions. But I watched every game live, I have my own opinion on the subject.

I know, but memories can be foggy or selective. Anyway, my point was just to reveal that there are other opinions and perspectives, so don't take it personally.

Did I not say, overall talent??? You had a prime Jeff Hornacek scoring 20 ppg, 51 fg% 44 3pt%, prime Dan Marjerle, with 17 ppg, Tom Chambers with 16 ppg, Tim Perry with 12 ppg, Mark West who was pretty good defender... plus KJ scored a lot, and the players that didn't score were hustle players. Phoenix had had more talent.

other than John & Karl, there was Jeff Malone 18 ppg and Tyrone Corbin 11.6 ppg... and Mark Eaton who was having back problems, and played limited minutes and games. The rest were quite unremarkable, but John got the most out of them, because he got everyone involved and set them up, based on their strengths.

You act as if K.J. had nothing to do with how well those Phoenix teammates performed. Did you read my earlier posts in which I quoted Chambers and Hornacek, or showed what happened to Chambers' statistics and accomplishments after he joined K.J., or what occurred to Majerle's numbers after he left K.J., or what happened to the field goal percentages of Hornacek, Perry, and Andrew Lang after they left K.J. and joined Philadelphia? You say that Stockton, with regard to his teammates, "got the most out of them, because he got everyone involved and set them up, based on their strengths," and he did, but K.J. did the same. Just because he wasn't quite as "pure" of a point guard didn't mean that he failed to fulfill a similar function. Again, I've explained all these points with well-documented statistics and quotations, so go back and read those posts. See the one where Clyde Drexler says that as far he's concerned, K.J. might as well have scored Perry's 27 points in a 1992 playoff game versus Portland, and see what happened to Perry's career after he left K.J. In four years with Johnson, Perry shot .524 from the field (never lower than .513), but in four years after K.J. (the last four of his NBA career), he shot .446. K.J. made Perry seem like a legitimate and attractive starting NBA power forward when it turned out that in terms of raw talent, he was a fringe player at best (although you don't seem to want to acknowledge that point). K.J. did virtually the same for his teammates as Stockton did for his Jazz mates.

A similar example is Andrew Lang. In four years with K.J., Lang shot a combined .538 from the field (never lower than .522), but in his first year with Philadelphia, he dropped like a rock, all the way to .425. Because of his shot-blocking skills, Lang managed to play eight more NBA seasons after leaving K.J., but he never again shot higher than .473 from the field, and overall without K.J., he shot just .447, almost the exact same percentage as Perry without K.J. In other words, K.J. was able to take natural sub-45% field goal shooters and turn them into guys who shot 52-54% from the field. He got everything out of them that there was to get, and possibly more than anyone else ever could have gotten.

The irony is that when the Sixers received Hornacek, Perry, and Lang from Phoenix in exchange for Barkley, many thought that they'd received quite a load of talent, three starters off a 53-win team who each shot well over 50% from the field. Indeed, some also thought that the Suns had surrendered too much talent. However, Perry and Lang were not nearly as effective away from K.J., and even Hornacek saw his field goal percentage fall from .512 in '92 with K.J. to .470 in Philadelphia in '93. Give K.J. credit for his ability to involve and elevate his teammates.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...hornaje01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...perryti01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../langan01.html