Is the efficiency of driving and kicking for TWO-pointers = posting up?

[3ball]

Michael Cooper, Byron Scott and even Magic late in his career [COLOR="black"]could've shot A MILLION threes whenever they wanted[/COLOR] to but they knew that it would not be taking advantage of the better more efficient options they had down low.

Teams attempted two 3-pointers per game in 1985... You think they could've shot 24 per game efficiently like today if they "wanted to"??

That's dumb.. There's no other way to describe it.

Of course, Popovich says you're wrong.... His team has two great post players, yet the Spurs are forced to shoot 20 threes per game to compete, instead of 2 per game like the 80's.. Apparently, 3-pointers make various plays (screen-roll/drive-and-kick) more efficient than post ups from perennial all-stars.

Why would you hoist up 25+ 3 's when you have Kareem and Worthy, McHale, Bird and Parish, Sampson and Olajuwon or Moses down low!?! That's just bad basketball in ANY era.

It wasn't coincidence that the 80's and 90's had better post players.. jfc

Better post players existed in previous eras because post play was viewed as the best way to play... For a very long time, the 3-point shot wasn't considered a great offensive weapon... It was a novelty and coaches/players simply didn't implement/practice it like they did post ups.

Again, the notion that teams could've shot 24 three-pointers per game efficiently in 1985 - just a few years after the 3-point line was introduced - is utterly ridiculous.

It took players THIRTY YEARS for the perception of 3-pointers to reach where it is today and for players to shoot threes as proficiently as they do today.. You reference Cooper and Scott - that's just 2 guys - every team in today's game has 5+ guys that shoot much better than Cooper and Scott did.. It's not even close..

[FKAri]

It is all easier... Spacing makes all aspects of offense easier - this is a fact.

When Popovich complained about having to shoot 3-pointers over posting up, he didn't say a SINGLE THING about defense..

He simply said 3-pointers have replaced post ups as the more efficient option - this is what he said - I'll take his word and the MATH over your delusions..

So you're saying that EVERYTHING is easier offensively in today's NBA and all players are WORSE offensively as well, correct?

[3ball]

So you're saying that EVERYTHING is easier offensively in today's NBA and all players are WORSE offensively as well, correct?

yes.. the easier offense is offset by the worse individual offensive skill, which contributes to relatively stable league-wide offensive rating for the last 30 years.

again, teams posted up their players in previous eras - there was very little drive-and-kick because the 3-point shooting didn't exist to make it the ultra-efficient play that it is today.. The only reason screen-roll/drive-and-kick is the foundation of every team's offense in TODAY'S game is because the 3-point shooting exists to make it the most efficient play.

This proves that the decline in post-ups is due to higher efficiency drive-and-kick made possible by 3-pointers, not defensive tactics.. In the absence of 3-pointers, no amount of defensive strategy could prevent post-ups from supplanting drive-and-kick.

These are the mathematical facts... And btw, Popovich recently SAID the above things - he said he hates 3-pointers and that 3-pointers have replaced post ups.. He didn't say anything about defense preventing post ups - he said THREE POINTERS have caused post-ups to decline.

[dhsilv]

This is common knowledge. No hand checking has resulted in it being much easier to shoot the 3, which in turn means that it's going to be taken more frequently than in eras with hand checking. This in turn results in 3 pointers replacing post ups. Post ups are not as frequent in today's game not because of defense, but for the reason that 3ball stated which is the 3 point shot.

The hand check and shooting 3's have minimal to no connection. This is just absurd.

[dhsilv]

Please!

Kareem, Magic, Worthy, McHale, Parish, Bird and Walton were MONSTER college players with awesome post up games against REAL ZONE and no 3 point line!!! They would murder the present SOFT ZONE RULES!

An older Tim Duncan at 40+ years old can still post up ANYTIME wherever he wants on the floor and he NEVER had the refined post game the guys I mentioned above had.

Posting up takes a committed skillful player in that area and a competent pass first PG knowing were to get the ball to that player. Two aspects SEVERELY LACKING in the modern NBA!

What good is posting up if you can't get the ball? A dominate post player can't get the ball in today's game due to the zone. If you can GET the ball in the post it's effective, but doing that is nearly impossible if a team wants to take it away.

[3ball]

The hand check and shooting 3's have minimal to no connection. This is just absurd.

You obviously never played ball yourself.

When perimeter defense is hands-off, that means there is mandatory space between defender and ballhandler - the space makes it easier to pull-up for jumpshots compared to hands-ON defense and NO space between defender and ballhandler.

(I find it amusing that guys act like experts on something they've tried to teach themselves without actually doing it... Invariably, there will be huge gaps in their knowledge and perception).

thread cliffs: the decline in post-ups is due to higher efficiency drive-and-kick made possible by 3-pointers, not defensive tactics.. In the absence of 3-pointers, no amount of defensive strategy could prevent post-ups from supplanting drive-and-kick.

[dhsilv]

When I play outdoors, it's much more difficult for me to get my 3 point shot off because it's street ball, there are no refs, and I have to use my off arm to create space. Hand checked the entire game. I take less 3 pointers per game in street ball. When playing league ball, the defender can barely even touch me without getting the whistle and all I have to do is chain a simple in out dribble after a cross over or behind the back move and I have a wide open look. Hand checking absolutely effects the # of 3 point shots taken.

Lets drop curry. How many 3's are being taken with a defender on them off the dribble? That isn't a huge part of the game today, again unless you're curry and often when he does that he's shooting it 5 feet from the line.

3's are generally even today catch and shoot shots.

[dhsilv]

Seriously man, the lack of handchecking makes a world of difference for 3 point shooting.

Next game, watch what happens after penetration, 50% of the time it's a kickout to the man who had his defender shadow/sag, then he either shoots from there or swings the ball.

The ease of which a guard can get past his man, in addition to blatant moving screens being allowed, means you get a 5 on 4 scenario AT WILL, which creates the opportunity for an open 3 or an open swing ball option.

That's a different argument than what was made. Hand checks don't alter shooting. You're right that players can get past defenders without it easier. That is why the zone was brought back into the game as a simi counter. What zones have really done is made it HARD to get the ball to the post and as a result we see more guard dominated offenses and we're seeing bigs learn to play outside of the post to work WITH guards.

Does this create more 3's than say an 03 spurs system or the mid 90's rockets? Perhaps but more than likely teams learned from teams like that, that when you get open shots, you should be behind the line.

[3ball]

Lets drop curry. How many 3's are being taken with a defender on them off the dribble? That isn't a huge part of the game today, again unless you're curry and often when he does that he's shooting it 5 feet from the line.

3's are generally even today catch and shoot shots.

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Today's perimeter defense is a league-mandated hands-off - space is now required between players on the perimeter, so shooters and penetrators achieve stats much easier against the visibly weaker defense:








Otoh, Curry never faces hands-ON, hand-checking shown below because it's a foul in today's game - the lack of space made it harder to shoot jumpers:





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[Heavincent]

Something something paint camping

Something something hard fouls

Something something weak side spacing

*insert gifs*

[FKAri]

Lets drop curry. How many 3's are being taken with a defender on them off the dribble? That isn't a huge part of the game today, again unless you're curry and often when he does that he's shooting it 5 feet from the line.

3's are generally even today catch and shoot shots.

He's basically saying that when he plays organized basketball he "chain a simple in out dribble after a cross over or behind the back move and I have a wide open look" FROM 3. This guy's coach must have the greenest of lights for this nigguh if he's doing that.

[3ball]

He's basically saying that when he plays organized basketball he "chain a simple in out dribble after a cross over or behind the back move and I have a wide open look" FROM 3. This guy's coach must have the greenest of lights for this nigguh if he's doing that.

Show me where Curry faced legal contact on the perimeter, instead of the league-mandated space he enjoys currently - show me where he faces perimeter defense like this and maybe I'll give him a little credit for getting off jump shots:

[3ball]

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Thread Cliffs:


1) The decline in post-ups is due to higher efficiency drive-and-kick made possible by 3-pointers, not defensive tactics.. In the absence of 3-pointers, no amount of defensive strategy could prevent post-ups from supplanting drive-and-kick.

2) When perimeter defense is hands-off (today's no hand-check), that means there is mandatory space between defender and ballhandler - the space makes it easier to pull-up for jumpshots compared to hands-ON defense and NO space between defender and ballhandler.

Popovich recently SAID the above things - he said he hates 3-pointers and that 3-pointers have replaced post ups.. He didn't say anything about defense preventing post ups - he said THREE POINTERS have caused post-ups to decline:

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25407446

[warriorfan]

Show me where Curry faced legal contact on the perimeter, instead of the league-mandated space he enjoys currently - show me where he faces perimeter defense like this and maybe I'll give him a little credit for getting off jump shots:

that was solid man defense but that help defender took too sharp of an angle on the trap. worth to mention however that that would of shut down anyone in the league besides Jordan.

[dhsilv]

that was solid man defense but that help defender took too sharp of an angle on the trap. worth to mention however that that would of shut down anyone in the league besides Jordan.

The best part here is that the idiot who's name will not be said posted that showing jordan not passing the ball and yet he claims MJ is an off ball player. Funny stuff.

But whatever...