MJ vs Zone defense (BRILLIANT!!!)

[Horatio33]

Jordan had the bad boy pistons draw up the jordan rules defence to stop him.

where are the kobe rules? 04 pistons don't need them, only need tayshaun prince plus kobe's own ego to stop kobe.

[Godfather]

Someone explain to me how, from 1999-2004 when Kobe was making his name and legend as "the next Jordan" and groupies were clinging to him mercilessly, Kobe couldn't perform at an all-time level under man-to-man rules against older, washed up versions of many of the same SG/SF's that Jordan faced (and destroyed) in the 90's? And that's with Shaq commanding double and triple teams, mind you. Yet despite this, Kobe's regular and postseason play was underwhelming when compared to Jordan's. No zone, older, past prime players who Jordan spanked in their primes, and a teammate commanding all the defensive attention. Yet he couldn't dominate.

Here is a list of most of the defenders Kobe faced in the playoffs from '00-'04 -- you know, when people such as yourself were busy calling him "Jordan this" and "Jordan that":


- Nick Anderson: a much older version of the same player Jordan routinely lit up in the early-mid 90's, including a 64-point outburst in '93 and two consecutive 32-35 point halves in the '95 playoffs.

- Steve Smith: a much older version of the same player Jordan routinely lit up in the early-mid 90's, including a 45 ppg playoff series in 1992 and numerous big games against his Hawks from '96-'98.

- A 35-37 year old past prime Scottie Pippen who Jordan used to torch regularly in practice in Pippen's better days.

- Stacey Augmon: Jordan tortured him in '93 and then put 51 on him for good measure in 2002...at age 39.

- Penny Hardaway: an older, hobbled, post-injury version of the player Jordan faced and beat 4-5 years prior.

- Shawn Marion: a rookie who Jordan dropped 41 points on at age 39 a few years later. Am I supposed to be impressed yet by all these quality defenders?

- Reggie Miller: an older, worse version of his 1998 self who Jordan beat in the ECF. Jordan routinely lit up Miller over the years.

- Jalen Rose: same dude Jordan abused in the '98 ECF at age 35 running on fumes.

- Doug Christie: Finally, a solid defender...and one that Jordan faced as well.

- 72 year old Terry Porter and Antonio Daniels: Porter was a (much) older version of one of the players Jordan abused in the late 80's/early 90's (including the '92 Finals) and Daniels is not exactly a defensive force -- he's certainly no John Starks, for instance. ;)

- Aaron McKie: Finally another solid defender. Too bad Jordan shot better against him from age 39-40 than Kobe did in the '01 Finals while averaging similar ppg (45% vs. 42%; 24.6 ppg vs. 22.6 ppg). And Jordan didn't have Shaq. Or good knees. And this was pre-zone, too, which means Kobe saw nothing but isolations all day (especially considering that Shaq drew 2-3 defenders every time down). Indicted by your own words.

- Ruben Patterson: Jordan hung 25/5/7/2 on 58% shooting on him at age 40.

- Bruce Bowen: great defender obviously.

- Kerry Kittles: an older, worse version of the player Jordan averaged 36 ppg against in the '98 playoffs at age 35 and one of the players who got burned for 45 points twice and 43 in a preseason game by Jordan at age 39-40.

- Richard Jefferson: Jordan's property for a great portion of the three 43+ point outings at age 39-40 discussed above.

- Kendall Gill: an ancient 34 year old version of the player Jordan averaged 36 ppg against in the '98 playoffs as well as a couple of 50+ point games back when Gill was actually a good player on Charlotte.

- Anthony Peeler: an ossified version of the player Jordan faced for many years. Jordan dropped 54 on him back when he was with the Lakers in '93, 41 pts on him at age 35 in 1998, and even 35 points on him at age 39 for good measure.

- Cuttino Mobley: Jordan had 35 on 57% shooting on him at age 40.

- Jim Jackson: Jordan put 37/5/7 on 52% shooting on him at age 39 in Miami as well as 36 pts a few times when Jordan was 33-35 years old.

- Latrell Sprewell: an older, slower version of the player Jordan routinely abused on Golden State and the Knicks, including a 26 and 39 point effort at age 39-40. Ho-hum.

- Tay Prince: good defender on a great defensive team. We saw how that series went, though, so I'm sure you won't mind if I skip right past this.


So please explain to me why Kobe couldn't dominate like Jordan did against many of the same players MJ faced who were much older at the time, and despite man-to-man defense and single coverage thanks to Shaq (unlike what MJ faced).

Do I hear any takers? Anyone? Yet we're supposed to believe he's better than Jordan?

[Fatal9]

LOL at people clapping Loki's huge spin in that long post.

His argument follows something like this: "In one or two isolated games over his career, Jordan had a good game against the defenders that Kobe faced."

at using "he used to torch Pippen in practise"...you really thing Pippen was playing playoff defense on him? Not to mention there is no way you can prove this.

Typical of him to also use statistics that you can't determine the cause of. Hey, T-Mac and Kobe had career years in '03...it must be the zone! It can't just be that both were healthy and were entering situations where they would have to score a lot of points.

[Da_Realist]

Seriously...you want to talk about matchups. What would Kobe do against a one legged, 34 year old, 6-3 Jeff Hornacek? Give me a break.

Probably what he usually does in the Finals.

Or to make it fair, we can wait until Kobe turns 34/35 to see what his production will be like then.

[Loki]

Seriously...you want to talk about matchups. What would Kobe do against a one legged, 34 year old, 6-3 Jeff Hornacek? Give me a break.

You mean the guy that held Kobe to 40.8% shooting in the '98 playoffs?

Yeah, I want to talk about matchups. You still haven't told me how Kobe wasn't able to dominate older, past-prime versions of players who Jordan routinely abused. Under man-to-man rules, mind you.

Once you answer that, we can start talking about how other players (not Kobe) have no problem dominating under "zone defense" and why that is. Hint: it rhymes with "doverrated."

[eliteballer]

You mean the guy that held Kobe to 40.8% shooting in the '98 playoffs?

Yeah, I want to talk about matchups. You still haven't told me how Kobe wasn't able to dominate older, past-prime versions of players who Jordan routinely abused. Under man-to-man rules, mind you.

Once you answer that, we can start talking about how other players (not Kobe) have no problem dominating under "zone defense" and why that is. Hint: it rhymes with "doverrated."

Ya, first of all insinuating that a starter is what was guarding a 6th man, who was 19 Kobe dropped 20+(including a 30+ point game) on Jordan and Pippen in 98. Yet Hornacek stopped him? Your desperation tactics are amusing. How is dropping 29 PPG at age 22 not dominating?

[Loki]

Ya, first of all insinuating that a starter is what was guarding a 6th man, who was 19 Kobe dropped 20+(including a 30+ point game) on Jordan and Pippen in 98. Yet Hornacek stopped him? Your desperation tactics are amusing. How is dropping 29 PPG at age 22 not dominating?

Actually, Kobe scored 16 points in 3 quarters against Jordan/Harper in that "30+ point game", about 8 of them coming against MJ (2 contested buckets and some FT's). Then he scored 17 in the 4th against bench scrubs with MJ icing his knees on the bench in a blowout.

But hey, however you want to rationalize his sub-41% shooting in '98 playoffs against the same defender you're deriding...

Regarding "domination," I'm talking about being top 3 in any aggregate statistical metric or any measure of wins produced. Kobe could always score, but scoring in itself (disregarding all-around numbers and efficiency) doesn't mean that you're dominating your peers.

[eliteballer]

Ya, Kobe played 3 series in 98 as a 6th man yet it was Hornacek as a starter in 1 series that determined his FG%. Lying will not get you anywhere. It won't change the truth Add on to that you have to make it seem as if what a 19 year old does determines anything. Kobe dominating MJ and Pippen along with the Jordan stopper Eddie Jones who held Bulls Jordan to like 35% shooting for his career :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju_rG3DtBnM

[Loki]

Ya, Kobe played 3 series in 98 as a 6th man yet it was Hornacek as a starter in 1 series that determined his FG%. Lying will not get you anywhere. It won't change the truth Add on to that you have to make it seem as if what a 19 year old does determines anything. Kobe dominating MJ and Pippen along with the Jordan stopper Eddie Jones who held Bulls Jordan to like 35% shooting for his career :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju_rG3DtBnM

Good job linking to a game that's not the 33 point game you mentioned. LOL @ "dominating Jordan and Pippen." All of your other "arguments" are trash and anyone can see it. Toodles.

[Trax416]

Wait, wait. People are actually saying Kobe is better then JOrdan, and Jordan's era had weaker defense?


Whatttttttttttttttttttttt the ****KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKk

Todays game is a joke compared to back then. You can't even ****ing touch a perimeter player or clog up the key. Imagine what Jordan would do if all he had to be was touched to draw a foul?

holy ****. 40+PPG easy.

[CavaliersFTW]

I dont get why people have this fascination that players from the past were better than today or something..

Steve Nash>>>>Pete Maravich
Joe Johnson>>>>Jerry West
Lebron James>>>>Larry Bird
Kevin Garnett>>>>Bill Russell

I could go on and on.

00>90>80>70>60>50

thats how it works people.

I'd say a good # of posters on this board could make the NBA in the 1950's. Complete joke of an era. Random Streetballers>old players

1952 NBA TEAM:




Complete joke.

Imagine what Baron Davis, Wade, Lebron or Kobe would do in a pathetic league like that.

Baron Davis would put out: 39 ppg, 11 rpg, 13 apg, 5 spg
Lebron : 48 ppg, 20 rpg, 11 apg, 8 bpg
Kobe: 57 ppg, 8 apg, 13 rpg, 5 spg, 5 bpg

what ever happened to this clown?

BTW here's his original video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDwJPY-Nneg

He had made it private since getting exposed but others already took it and re-uploaded it

[ArbitraryWater]

what ever happened to this clown?

BTW here's his original video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDwJPY-Nneg

He had made it private since getting exposed but others already took it and re-uploaded it

You're worse than PAH. Pah was actually a pretty funny dude if you knew him on Yt n shit.