Nique & G.O.A.T.

[Niquesports]

Some Potential 1973-74 rosters without the ABA's existence

Milwaukee
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Curtis Perry
Julius Erving
Bob Dandridge
Oscar Robertson
Lucious Allen
Jon McGlocklin
Swen Nater

Golden State Warriors
Nate Thurmond
Darnell Hillman
Rick Barry
Jeff Mullins
Cazzie Russell
Willie Wise
Jim Barnett
Butch Beard
George Johnson

Chicago Bulls
Artis Gilmore
Bob Love
Chet Walker
Jerry Sloan
Norm Van Lier
Maurice Lucas
Ralph Simpson
Clifford Ray
Bob Weiss

Los Angeles Lakers (If Wilt returned)
Wilt Chamberlain
Happy Hairston
Connie Hawkins
Jerry West
Gail Goodrich
Roger Brown
Jim Chones
Jim Price
Elmore Smith
Mack Calvin

New York Knicks
Willis Reed
Dave Debusschere
Bill Bradley
Earl Monroe
Walt Frazier
Phil Jackson
Jerry Lucas
Warren Jabali
Dean Meminger

Boston Celtics
Dave Cowens
Paul Silas
John Havlicek
Charlie Scott
JoJo White
Don Nelson
Don Chaney



Paul Westphal

YOu didnt really make your point. The Celtic team is the same team that won the title in 76.

The Warriors I dont think Hillman starts over Silky
Now the Bucks and Bulls are true improvements. But you only show 2 teams that have improved.
DOn't see any real impact improvement with the Knicks or Lakers.

[G.O.A.T]

YOu didnt really make your point. The Celtic team is the same team that won the title in 76.

The Warriors I dont think Hillman starts over Silky
Now the Bucks and Bulls are true improvements. But you only show 2 teams that have improved.
DOn't see any real impact improvement with the Knicks or Lakers.

Wilkes wasn't drafted until '74,. remember he was a rookie on the title team. Golden State gets a true PF in Hillman and also adds Willie Wise.

The Lakers add Chones, Calvin and Roger Brown...that kind of depth would have been huge in keep West and Wilt healthy and fresh.

The Knicks only add Jabali, the high scorer from Denver.

Boston adds Scott to a team that still has a prime Havlicek. They won the title in '74 anyway. The '76 team didn't have Chaney or Westphal.

The 76ers would add George McGinnis, Caldwell Jones and Marvin Barnes

The Kings get Mel Daniels and Louie Dampier

The Pistons get Dan Issel

The Sonics add Brian Taylor

The Suns get Ron Boone

The Hawks never lose Zelmo Beaty

It's subtle, but every team gets a little better. (And some like Milwaukee and Chicago a lot better) And that's also assuming that the league doesn't slow down expansion (which they likely would have) without the ABA. If that happens take away two rosters and add those players to the pool.

[Niquesports]

Wilkes wasn't drafted until '74,. remember he was a rookie on the title team. Golden State gets a true PF in Hillman and also adds Willie Wise.

The Lakers add Chones, Calvin and Roger Brown...that kind of depth would have been huge in keep West and Wilt healthy and fresh.

The Knicks only add Jabali, the high scorer from Denver.

Boston adds Scott to a team that still has a prime Havlicek. They won the title in '74 anyway. The '76 team didn't have Chaney or Westphal.

The 76ers would add George McGinnis, Caldwell Jones and Marvin Barnes

The Kings get Mel Daniels and Louie Dampier

The Pistons get Dan Issel

The Sonics add Brian Taylor

The Suns get Ron Boone

The Hawks never lose Zelmo Beaty

It's subtle, but every team gets a little better. (And some like Milwaukee and Chicago a lot better) And that's also assuming that the league doesn't slow down expansion (which they likely would have) without the ABA. If that happens take away two rosters and add those players to the pool.

What year are you basing this on ?
It would have a lot of effect on The Bucks would oscar still be effective in 73-75
A Pistons team of Lanier and issell with Bing and Jimmy Walker thats a nice team.
Don't think louie would do much for the Kings they had Tiny.But mel and Lacy might have been nice.
But your right the small improvements makes each team better.
But I dont think the expansion hurt the game as much as todays expansion where you have about 6 teams that have no chance of making the playoffs let alone win a championship.Who had David Thompsons rights?

[G.O.A.T]

What year are you basing this on ?
It would have a lot of effect on The Bucks would oscar still be effective in 73-75
A Pistons team of Lanier and issell with Bing and Jimmy Walker thats a nice team.
Don't think louie would do much for the Kings they had Tiny.But mel and Lacy might have been nice.
But your right the small improvements makes each team better.
But I dont think the expansion hurt the game as much as todays expansion where you have about 6 teams that have no chance of making the playoffs let alone win a championship.Who had David Thompsons rights?

I said 73-74 rosters. I figure that was about the height of the ABA's top tine players compared to the NBA's.

Thompson came out in '75 and the Hawks took him first overall, but he of course chose Denver and the ABA.

The Hawks with John Drew, Lou Hudson and David Thompson could have put up some serious points.

[Niquesports]

I said 73-74 rosters. I figure that was about the height of the ABA's top tine players compared to the NBA's.

Thompson came out in '75 and the Hawks took him first overall, but he of course chose Denver and the ABA.

The Hawks with John Drew, Lou Hudson and David Thompson could have put up some serious points.

Where would he play or should I saw whose spot would he had taken, Lou or Drew ?

It's a given that the added players helped the league but by how much. In the finals you had Mo Lucas with Portland and we had the discussion about how much he helped the Blazers. Then the Sixers had Doc and Mcginnis and role player Steve Mix. But the Nets only won 22 gm,Spurs 44,Denver won 50, and the Pacers won 36 so the players and the teams were big improvements to the league. In the Dispersal Draft only Gilmore made a signficant impact other player made minor to little impact. So I think its safe to say even though the leaguehad stars like Kareem,Mac,Cowens and Hondo ect... it wasn't at full strength.Add to the fact that several players choose the ABA over the NBA for the first time maybe from about 74-76 I would say might be the weakest point other than the 50's.The 2 major steals were David Thompson a # 1 draft pick and Rick Barry a league leading scorer.

[aau]

I dont think the Lebron Dr. J comparison is fair. Few people even knew who Dr. J was coming out of college.I think David Thompson would be a better everyone knew DT. Same with Barry and Wade ,Wade was coming off a championship Barry wasn't again a better comparison would be kevin Durrant.
That being said I think anyone that doesn't feel the ABA weakend the NBA isn't being realistic. Were talking about big time college players Artis Gilmore,Dan Issell,David Thompson,then you have Dr.J,Moses,Marvin Barnes,George McGinnis,Billy Knight ect...... These are players that would have started in the NBA.That NEts team would have been a tough match for the Knicks, same with Kentucky would have been a good game with the lakers.So on that point I agree the league was watered down from about 70-76. But overall the teams were better that in 66. You had over half the best players on the same teams.I guess Im flip flooping on this subject. Oh and aau Brain Taylor was tough.How about James Silias of the Spurs.

i'm glad you asked , i remember him being lightning fast and quick
but we didn't get to see him at his best when spurs joined the
league , he'd had a bad injury . . . so i did a lil diggin

"before duncan made bankshots and d rob gazelled up the court
and before gervin fingerolled his way to 4 scoring titles the
spurs were led by the amazingly skilled 6'2 dynamo
james silas"

say he played like "the good humor man" -- would feed gervin
kenon and paultz for 3Q then take over in the 4th earning
the nicknames "captain late" and "the late mr. silas"

"won a bunch of games in the final moments . . . it's not unusual
for silas to score 20 points in the 4th" ... spurs coach bob bass

we went to him late because he was a great FT shooter and
he could back his man down like oscar , pass out of double
team or turn and shoot an unblockable 12-14 ft fallaway
and get fouled"

.

bobby 'slick' leonard
3x champ pacers coach

"james silas really should be in the hall of fame . . . i liken him a
lot to sam jones in boston . . . we double teamed him from the
3 pt line to the top of the key even with gervin on his team
this guy was a monster , a great , great basketball player
the most underrated guard in aba history"

.

led spurs against pacers in 74 , took them to 7 games . . . faced
them again in 75 avg 18.8 and 10.0 (ps #1) but lost in 6

1976

#6 ppg 23.8
#4 fg .519%
#4 ft .879%
#5 asst 5.4
#5 in min pl
#9 steal 1.8

named 1stT over gervin and only an otherworldly season from
julius 'dr.j' erving kept him from winning mvp honors

great season came to a crushing end when in game 1 vs doc and
the nets he landed on brian taylor's foot and broke his
ankle after taking a jump shot

the next year is when the league's merged and he still hadn't fully
recovered . . . played in 22 games in 77 and 37 in 78

1979 spurs finished 48-34 - 1st place - lost ECF to bullets in 7
avg 16 in the reg season and 19 during the playoffs

after b-2-b 17ppg seasons in 80 and 81

he retired in 82

[Niquesports]

i'm glad you asked , i remember him being lightning fast and quick
but we didn't get to see him at his best when spurs joined the
league , he'd had a bad injury . . . so i did a lil diggin

"before duncan made bankshots and d rob gazelled up the court
and before gervin fingerolled his way to 4 scoring titles the
spurs were led by the amazingly skilled 6'2 dynamo
james silas"

say he played like "the good humor man" -- would feed gervin
kenon and paultz for 3Q then take over in the 4th earning
the nicknames "captain late" and "the late mr. silas"

"won a bunch of games in the final moments . . . it's not unusual
for silas to score 20 points in the 4th" ... spurs coach bob bass

we went to him late because he was a great FT shooter and
he could back his man down like oscar , pass out of double
team or turn and shoot an unblockable 12-14 ft fallaway
and get fouled"

.

bobby 'slick' leonard
3x champ pacers coach

"james silas really should be in the hall of fame . . . i liken him a
lot to sam jones in boston . . . we double teamed him from the
3 pt line to the top of the key even with gervin on his team
this guy was a monster , a great , great basketball player
the most underrated guard in aba history"

.

led spurs against pacers in 74 , took them to 7 games . . . faced
them again in 75 avg 18.8 and 10.0 (ps #1) but lost in 6

1976

#6 ppg 23.8
#4 fg .519%
#4 ft .879%
#5 asst 5.4
#5 in min pl
#9 steal 1.8

named 1stT over gervin and only an otherworldly season from
julius 'dr.j' erving kept him from winning mvp honors

great season came to a crushing end when in game 1 vs doc and
the nets he landed on brian taylor's foot and broke his
ankle after taking a jump shot

the next year is when the league's merged and he still hadn't fully
recovered . . . played in 22 games in 77 and 37 in 78

1979 spurs finished 48-34 - 1st place - lost ECF to bullets in 7
avg 16 in the reg season and 19 during the playoffs

after b-2-b 17ppg seasons in 80 and 81

he retired in 82

I remember hearing the old heads talk about James Reminds me of Archie Clark. Do you know anything about Archie ? I always laugh will the young guys are so quick to say hey Chris Paul is gonna be a top 5 PG all time. I love Paul but he has a lot of guys he has to pass to get there.Im like you I loved Gus 'The Wizzard" Williams. The avg. person under 40 couldn't tell you anything about him.Kelvin Martin nice player with a wet shot have they ever seen Phil Chenier .They talk about Dennis Rodman There was a guy name Truck Robinson he would get you 15 reb and 20pt.Grant Hill The 70's had Walter Davis.Til this day Kevin Porter is as good a PG that I have ever seen. He just didnt have the off court focus.Now all the young guys gonna try and say Im saying KP is as Good a player as Magic . I didn't say that i said PG not player. I also like Mark Price Mark Jackson. I played PG so I love true PG.

[aau]

I remember hearing the old heads talk about James Reminds me of Archie Clark. Do you know anything about Archie ? I always laugh will the young guys are so quick to say hey Chris Paul is gonna be a top 5 PG all time. I love Paul but he has a lot of guys he has to pass to get there.Im like you I loved Gus 'The Wizzard" Williams. The avg. person under 40 couldn't tell you anything about him.Kelvin Martin nice player with a wet shot have they ever seen Phil Chenier .They talk about Dennis Rodman There was a guy name Truck Robinson he would get you 15 reb and 20pt.Grant Hill The 70's had Walter Davis.Til this day Kevin Porter is as good a PG that I have ever seen. He just didnt have the off court focus.Now all the young guys gonna try and say Im saying KP is as Good a player as Magic . I didn't say that i said PG not player. I also like Mark Price Mark Jackson. I played PG so I love true PG.

whew , man , archie clark , , you tryin to make me
get loose upstairs . . . things i havn't thot about
since forever . . . let me line these years up

i remember clark with the lakers and 6ers vaguely so it
was interesting to learn that he was traded in 68 to
philly for wilt following his 2nd year in the league

69-70

he was going up against 2nd year monroe and frazier , 9th year oscar
and jerry west the league leading scorer at 31.2 in his 10th year
watching these games is what made me want to play . . . .

archie was a bad man , , always had my respect as a scorer
traded to BAL in 72 with pearl , mad dog , unseld , chenier
and stan love , my alma mater morningside high and the
father of twolves kevin . . i thot they'd do something

they did

bullets turned around and traded pearl to ny the next month
in one of theee most rediculous trades in league history

archie went on to lead that team in scoring 25.1 that year

he was pretty much done after that

[Niquesports]

whew , man , archie clark , , you tryin to make me
get loose upstairs . . . things i havn't thot about
since forever . . . let me line these years up

i remember clark with the lakers and 6ers vaguely so it
was interesting to learn that he was traded in 68 to
philly for wilt following his 2nd year in the league

69-70

he was going up against 2nd year monroe and frazier , 9th year oscar
and jerry west the league leading scorer at 31.2 in his 10th year
watching these games is what made me want to play . . . .

archie was a bad man , , always had my respect as a scorer
traded to BAL in 72 with pearl , mad dog , unseld , chenier
and stan love , my alma mater morningside high and the
father of twolves kevin . . i thot they'd do something

they did

bullets turned around and traded pearl to ny the next month
in one of theee most rediculous trades in league history

archie went on to lead that team in scoring 25.1 that year

he was pretty much done after that

When Archie came to the then Baltimore Bullets was when I first started loving the game.Archie and them fly orange uniforms. Til this day I dont understand that trade.I have read and heard it was over money on Pearl's contract. However you don't trade him to your biggest rival and for Mike Freakin Reridon.Abe Pollin never lived that down as being a cheap owner in DC.many blame hayes for the lost to the Warriors in 75 I blame Mike he was no help on defending the perimeter.This is fun How bout my home boy Dave Bing. DC product he was as smooth as Grant Hill could scorer and dish. You said you like HIgh School basketball. Name the only High School that has 2 players in the Top 50 list.

[aau]

When Archie came to the then Baltimore Bullets was when I first started loving the game.Archie and them fly orange uniforms. Til this day I dont understand that trade.I have read and heard it was over money on Pearl's contract. However you don't trade him to your biggest rival and for Mike Freakin Reridon.Abe Pollin never lived that down as being a cheap owner in DC.many blame hayes for the lost to the Warriors in 75 I blame Mike he was no help on defending the perimeter.This is fun How bout my home boy Dave Bing. DC product he was as smooth as Grant Hill could scorer and dish. You said you like HIgh School basketball. Name the only High School that has 2 players in the Top 50 list.

man , , you trying to hurt me . . . trivia this early

the 2 players in question would be dave bing and
elgin baylor both from springarn HS in baltimore

reason i know this is because earl jones is from that school
he graduated the year after me and was drafted by the
lakers in 84 . . . you know the LA media ate that up

did you ever see him play in high school . . . i know
he beat dematha in the city championship game
dude was supposed to be real , one of the
biggest flops in all america history

.

david bing's jumper was bananas . . . smooth as butter
could stop on a dime and pull from anywhere

i just learned that when growing up in northeast d.c. injury
struck both he and his father who was a bricklayer

at a construction site a brick crashed 4 stories and struck
his dad on the head and created a blood clot in his brain

dave swore he'd never live like that, but at the age of 5
he suffered his own calamity while running down the
street with 2 sticks he'd just nailed together

he tripped and the nail plunged into his left eye
an operation saved the eye but he suffered
from blurry vision from then on

6 years into his nba career , with his vision already limited
came perilously close to losing the sight in his right eye

while defending happy hairston , he made a cut and as he slid
by bing his hand flew up and inadvertently jabbed a finger
into david's right pupil . . . . despite the severe pain
bing thought he'd suffered just a scratch and
was in the starting lineup a few nights
later in the season opener

however , he awoke the next morning to find his vision
extremely dimmed . . . rushed to the hospital he was
told that his retina was partially detached and he
underwent surgery the next day and spent 3
three days in total darkness with his eye
bandaged . . . he sat out 3 months

warned by the doctor that returning to play would put
his vision at risk , he returned to the pistons in
december and scored 21p 1st game back

as always , bing found virtue in the injury

"i'm a better free throw shooter now"

i remember watching him play with that patch over
his eye , i just didn't know why

[Niquesports]

man , , you trying to hurt me . . . trivia this early

the 2 players in question would be dave bing and
elgin baylor both from springarn HS in baltimore

reason i know this is because earl jones is from that school
he graduated the year after me and was drafted by the
lakers in 84 . . . you know the LA media ate that up

did you ever see him play in high school . . . i know
he beat dematha in the city championship game
dude was supposed to be real , one of the
biggest flops in all america history

.

david bing's jumper was bananas . . . smooth as butter
could stop on a dime and pull from anywhere

i just learned that when growing up in northeast d.c. injury
struck both he and his father who was a bricklayer

at a construction site a brick crashed 4 stories and struck
his dad on the head and created a blood clot in his brain

dave swore he'd never live like that, but at the age of 5
he suffered his own calamity while running down the
street with 2 sticks he'd just nailed together

he tripped and the nail plunged into his left eye
an operation saved the eye but he suffered
from blurry vision from then on

6 years into his nba career , with his vision already limited
came perilously close to losing the sight in his right eye

while defending happy hairston , he made a cut and as he slid
by bing his hand flew up and inadvertently jabbed a finger
into david's right pupil . . . . despite the severe pain
bing thought he'd suffered just a scratch and
was in the starting lineup a few nights
later in the season opener

however , he awoke the next morning to find his vision
extremely dimmed . . . rushed to the hospital he was
told that his retina was partially detached and he
underwent surgery the next day and spent 3
three days in total darkness with his eye
bandaged . . . he sat out 3 months

warned by the doctor that returning to play would put
his vision at risk , he returned to the pistons in
december and scored 21p 1st game back

as always , bing found virtue in the injury

"i'm a better free throw shooter now"

i remember watching him play with that patch over
his eye , i just didn't know why

Your right about Spingarn but its in DC 5 min. from RFK the old stadium the Redskins played at. I knew about Bings eye troubles but didnt know the story Thanks. Quick note on Bing, He played in one of the Biggest DC High School games of All TIme. Spingarn vs Carroll lead by no other Big John Thompson. IT was a game the old heads still talk about. Carroll had won like 39 gm in a row, had 4 D 1 players Spingarn had 3 stars although a Soph Bing was really the 3rd best player on his team.I have done a lot of reading about that game. ITs as big as the game kareem and Power Memorial vs DeMatha.It was a Catholic School vs a Inter High game. Carroll won.
Bing was later traded to the Bullets as a young fan I never liked his game. But I look back on it it was more I was a BIG Kevin Porter Fan.To me Bing was playing in KP's spot.But I know you dont know about my man KP

Earl was a raw big athletic 7ft HS player where most teams C were 6-6 at best.HE came to DC with big fan fare and he lived up to it. His Spingarn team beat DeMatha in the City title game that started Adrian Branch of U Maryland.He later went to a D2 school and lead them to the D2 championship.I don't think the NBA was ready for a player like Earl and Earl wasn't ready for the NBA.ITs some what sad the DC public schools use to have so much talent so many great teams. THe last great team thatt he inter high really had was again Spingarn with Sherman Douglass of Syracuse/NBA that was about 1985.

[aau]

Your right about Spingarn but its in DC 5 min. from RFK the old stadium the Redskins played at. I knew about Bings eye troubles but didnt know the story Thanks. Quick note on Bing, He played in one of the Biggest DC High School games of All TIme. Spingarn vs Carroll lead by no other Big John Thompson. IT was a game the old heads still talk about. Carroll had won like 39 gm in a row, had 4 D 1 players Spingarn had 3 stars although a Soph Bing was really the 3rd best player on his team.I have done a lot of reading about that game. ITs as big as the game kareem and Power Memorial vs DeMatha.It was a Catholic School vs a Inter High game. Carroll won.
Bing was later traded to the Bullets as a young fan I never liked his game. But I look back on it it was more I was a BIG Kevin Porter Fan.To me Bing was playing in KP's spot.But I know you dont know about my man KP

Earl was a raw big athletic 7ft HS player where most teams C were 6-6 at best.HE came to DC with big fan fare and he lived up to it. His Spingarn team beat DeMatha in the City title game that started Adrian Branch of U Maryland.He later went to a D2 school and lead them to the D2 championship.I don't think the NBA was ready for a player like Earl and Earl wasn't ready for the NBA.ITs some what sad the DC public schools use to have so much talent so many great teams. THe last great team thatt he inter high really had was again Spingarn with Sherman Douglass of Syracuse/NBA that was about 1985.

please

kevin porter was the original wizard
gus played just like him , besides
wasn't bing almost through

and that baltimore dc thing has always confused me
you can be out of dc and into balt in five minutes?

that was branch he took out . . . read about earl that
where he came from the entire city was on his
shoulders and when they lost state title
he crumbled beneath it

moms said he would lock himself in his room and not
come out for nobody , friends , recruiters
wouldn't take calls from majors

basically quit school , had 63 unexcused absences
wanted to send him to his 3 sisters in balt but
he didn't want to go . . . some aau coach
from balt heard about him and went
and pulled the kid out and took
him to springarn . . . . obv.

his transcripts were bad court injunction he had to
sit out first few games but went on to take city
dropped 29 on'em . . . he went to udc right
there where you are

so you from right there , the longstanding mecca of hs ball
super hotbed , storied history in high school basketball

they were doin big things in dc back in the day
dematha and wootten were already legendary

didn't len bias come from around there
wittenburg and lowe , them 2 fools
were in my grad class as well

i'll never forget the 83 draft , drexler lowe and witt were
sitting in the front row and it was the clippers pick
they anounced byron's name and the look on
clyde's face was like WTF is that??!!

never liked clyde after that , , or the 3 of them really
i told byron every time you play clyde , let him know

i kid you not , you can check the annuals , you can
count on one hand the number of games he didn't
drop at least a dub on clyde . . . drex got his oc
and became the better player but not by much
by my semi-biased standards , clyde couldn't
shoot . . byron was lites out from anywhere

anyway , to get back
i knew about matha , carroll , dunbar and the others

so are these schools like 30 seconds apart

how that work

[aau]

GOAT

where you take off to

let's chop up the 50 and beyond

[magnax1]

Kareem and Dr. J on one team would be insanity.

[G.O.A.T]

GOAT

where you take off to

let's chop up the 50 and beyond

Sorry if he was already mentioned, but what about a guy like Randy Smith?

Now there was a dude who could fly. Rarely if ever gets his due, in part because he played in Buffalo and beyond that because he played in the 1970's.

How good could Doug Collins have been?

What about Johnny Neumann?

aau and Nique, you guys remember Billy Ray Bates?

What do you do with guys like Gar Heard, Paul Westphal?