Was there ANY point during any of the Bulls' 6 Finals series where..

[Stringer Bell]

I assume you meant KAJ from 1982-1986, when he was past his prime but still an elite player (he was all-NBA first team over Hakeem, Moses and Ewing in 86' while being top 5 in MVP voting--all at ages 38/39 ). Yeah, if you add KAJ circa 1982-1986 to Magic, who was runner-up MVP that year (remember, the Lakers collapsed to 43-39 and losing in the first round without Magic there to make the players better--look at their shooting percentages with and without Magic) it probably goes 7 games. I would bet on the Lakers' experience relative to the young Bulls in 91' if you add 82'-86' KAJ and a healthy Worthy/Scott.

Maybe I'm just being too stats-based as I didn't follow the 85/86 season when it happened (I have seen many of the playoff games but not regular season), but how did Kareem make first-team All-NBA center that season? Did they just get so used to Kareem making it that they voted for him again?

Kareem put up 23.4 pts, 6.1 rebs, 3.5 asst, 1.6 blk per game, on 56.4% FG, while playing alongside the best PG in the game in Magic, who finished 3rd in MVP voting. 6 rebounds a game for a starting center.

Hakeem averaged 23.5 pts, 11.5 rebs, 2 asst, 2 stl, 3.4 blk on 52.6% FG.

Hype is a key word. The Knicks were the #1 seed in the East (60 wins) but let's remember that same crew won 57 in 94' and 55 in 95'. At no point were they ever viewed as dominant or heavy favorites. Even the following year against the MJ-less Bulls they were only slight favorites and they had 7 games series against Indiana in both 94' and 95' and against Chicago in 94' (as well as a 7 game Finals in 94'). They weren't as good as the hype they got because of where they played.

Yes, I agree with the Knicks getting overhyped because of the big city, New York-factor. Even now, when people look back on the 90s Knicks, we often hear the "they would have won titles but had the bad luck of being around the same with with Michael Jordan & the Bulls".

The only Knicks team that the Bulls eliminated that were championship-quality was 93', and MAYBE, 92'. It's far from a guarantee that they beat Phoenix in the finals. I wouldn't pick either team with any confidence.

1989: Knicks aren't getting past the Pistons. I doubt the Cavs (the year of Jordan over Ehlo) would have gotten past Detroit either.

1991: Knicks were a .500 team, 8th seed.

1992: MAYBE the Knicks could have gotten past the Cavs and then beaten Portland in the Finals. I wouldn't have bet on it. The Knicks would have been underdog.

1996: Not a championship-caliber team.

Great points. They actually toyed with putting Larry Krystowiak (however you spell his name) as the starting PF in desperation. By the end of the Orlando series Pippen was moved to PF because Grant was going off, not just by rebounding and playing defense but by scoring. Phil Jackson believed Grant was a choker under pressure and defended him lightly; Grant was averaging around 20 ppg as a result until Pippen was switched onto him.

That reminds me, Krystowiak's career went downhill after a serious knee injury because of that POS Bill Laimbeer. I've never seen the play, but Krystowiak claims that Laimbeer pushed him which led to him falling and tearing his knee. An article in Sports Illustrated (I think the one with Laimbeer on the cover with that whiny 'what do I do?' face), says that he actually just panicked because he figured Laimbeer would do something dirty, and then he fell and tore his knee.

Anyway, in one book I read (I think Second Coming by Sam Smith), Larry was giving guys advice during a practice scrimmage. Jordan screams at him "What do you know? You have no legs and never play, who are you to give advice!!!"".

I was rewatching some games during the 95' playoffs, Horace Grant had that mid-range jump shot down. He killed Chicago in a couple of games with it and kept Orlando in a couple of the games against Houston with it too.

Great points. Pippen also was getting fatigued at the end of those same games. They simply had to do too much--they were the team's top rebounders among their other responsibilities. The "rust" argument was always odd. MJ played as much in 95' as he did in 86' and we know what MJ did in the playoffs in 86'. In 95' he put up 32/7/5 on 48%--numbers superior to what he did in each of the next 3 postseasons.

There is a noticable difference in his explosiveness and leaping ability from when he first came back, to just 2 months later. It's interesting, in his first game back against Indiana, and then 3rd game against Orlando, it almost looked like he was struggling to get high enough to dunk. Two months later it was quite a change. During one instance against Orlando in the playoffs, I think the 3rd game, Jordan had the ball and was getting pressured by the defense, I think he was doubled. He went back to nearly half-court, split the defense, and drove and soared high for a dunk.

I think Jordan made the conscious decision in the summer of 95' to strengthen up some more and be more post-oriented. He already had the post-game and fadewaway in his arsenal for years, but he tweaked and refined it a bit as I'm sure he knew he'd have to rely on it more.

True--and to be fair the entire team had a meltdown in the final 3 minutes of Game 6 (they had an 8 point lead). I remember MJ making some key mistakes but Pippen missed a close tip in and Longley a key lay up.

Yeah, that Longley one was pretty bad. One of the books, I think "Second Coming" which I mentioned above, said that Jordan would always tell Longley to dunk on those close shots instead of laying it in. Then here you see why.

[Soundwave]

The Knicks had the best record in the East in '93 and were basically supposed to be the second coming of the Bad Boy Pistons. Plus they were coached by Riley who most people considered to be the GOAT coach.

That and they almost did beat the Bulls in '92.

The refs also IMO let them get away with a lot of questionable defence ... lets just put it that way. You wouldn't be able to do some of that stuff against a superstar player today.

When they went up 2-0 in '93, everyone thought the Bulls were done for.

Jordan was also playing with an injured shooting wrist throughout the 93 playoffs.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen's performance of game 1 against Indiana like the best example of stats not truly showing a player's value.

His stat-line was awful. Watch the game and you see how much of an impact he made with his defense.

Yeah his defense during the 98' playoffs reached a level of dominance that has probably never been matched by a perimeter defender.

Bulls were legit underdogs:

'91 Finals
'93 ECF
'93 Finals
'98 Finals

Bulls were doubted:

'92 ECSF
'92 Finals
'98 ECF

Look at the team records in those series.

1991 Finals: CHI 61-15, LAL 58-24
1992 ECSF: CHI 67-15, NYK 51-31
1992 Finals: CHI 67-15, POR 57-25
1993 ECF: NYK 60-22, CHI 57-25
1993 Finals: PHX 62-20, CHI 57-25
1998 ECF: CHI 62-20, IND 58-24
1998 Finals: CHI 62-20, UTA 62-20

The Bulls had the better record in nearly every series. When they didn't, they were close. They were only 3 off of NY in 93' and 5 off of PHX--and this was as the defending two-time champs. They were never big underdogs.

The only series where the 1991-1993/1996-1998 Bulls did not go in with the better record were the 93' ECF and 93' Finals. That is it. Two series in six years.

Maybe I'm just being too stats-based as I didn't follow the 85/86 season when it happened (I have seen many of the playoff games but not regular season), but how did Kareem make first-team All-NBA center that season? Did they just get so used to Kareem making it that they voted for him again?

It wasn't because they were used to voting for him. KAJ was on the second team the previous year behind Moses and was behind Moses in other years in the 80's. He was just that good. KAJ's numbers were not indicative of how good he was because he was on a stacked team. Yeah, he put up 23.4 ppg on "Showtime" but it would have been more on most teams.

Even now, when people look back on the 90s Knicks, we often hear the "they would have won titles but had the bad luck of being around the same with with Michael Jordan & the Bulls".

The only Knicks team that the Bulls eliminated that were championship-quality was 93', and MAYBE, 92'. It's far from a guarantee that they beat Phoenix in the finals. I wouldn't pick either team with any confidence.

Exactly. They were contenders in 94', 95', 97', 99' and 00' and lost to a team other than the Bulls. The 1992-1995 team was different than the 1997-2000 team, though, but the fact is the 90's Knicks were the 90's Pacers: perennial contenders who could never win. The difference is one played in New York and the other in Indianapolis. In every era there will be several perennial contenders who ultimately never win (i.e. the Kings or Suns for the 2000's). In the 90's it was the Knicks, Pacers, Jazz and Sonics.

1989: Knicks aren't getting past the Pistons. I doubt the Cavs (the year of Jordan over Ehlo) would have gotten past Detroit either.

1991: Knicks were a .500 team, 8th seed.

1992: MAYBE the Knicks could have gotten past the Cavs and then beaten Portland in the Finals. I wouldn't have bet on it. The Knicks would have been underdog.

1996: Not a championship-caliber team.

I agree. They were not a championship caliber team in 89', 91', 96' or, for that matter, 90' and 98'. People always point to 92' but I highly doubt they would have won that year. They were a 51 win team in 92' and would have had to beat a 57 win Cavs team in the ECF and then the 57 win Blazers. They also had no relevant playoff experience at the time. It is hard to win a title without significant playoff experience.

That reminds me, Krystowiak's career went downhill after a serious knee injury because of that POS Bill Laimbeer. I've never seen the play, but Krystowiak claims that Laimbeer pushed him which led to him falling and tearing his knee. An article in Sports Illustrated (I think the one with Laimbeer on the cover with that whiny 'what do I do?' face), says that he actually just panicked because he figured Laimbeer would do something dirty, and then he fell and tore his knee.

Yeah the 80's Pistons were a disgrace. It is disgusting they get lionized these days.

Larry was giving guys advice during a practice scrimmage. Jordan screams at him "What do you know? You have no legs and never play, who are you to give advice!!!"".

Now that is real leadership.

I was rewatching some games during the 95' playoffs, Horace Grant had that mid-range jump shot down. He killed Chicago in a couple of games with it and kept Orlando in a couple of the games against Houston with it too.

Yeah he was great in the playoffs that year. Against Chicago was on a mission. His teammates carried him off in celebration when Orlando won.

The Knicks had the best record in the East in '93

By 3 games. That is like saying the Suns in 07' were better than the 07' Spurs because the Suns won 3-4 more games. Look at the Heat in the 11' and 14' ECF's. They had the inferior record, but due to their championship pedigree and their top players, they were favored over the Bulls and Pacers.

[Soundwave]

By virtue of having the best player in the game you are automatically going to be the favorite in a lot of match ups, that's usually the first thing most people look at.

The "Bulls are slipping" narrative was a fairly popular one though for both of their threepeat years.