Gilmore vs Olajuwon

[jlauber]

Interesting...

A 35-38 year old Gilmore faced a 22-25 year old Hakeem in 19 H2H games. From what I could gather, Hakeem was the starting center against Gilmore, although I could not confirm that the two exclusively defended each other.

Given the fact that Hakeem was the starting center in 23 H2H's against Kareem (and in their 5 playoff H2H's, it was SAMPSON who was assigned to Kareem), I suspect that the two did indeed guard each other for much of those H2H's.

Now, this data includes Gilmore's last season in the league, at age 38, and when he only played on 13 mpg. In that last season, the two went at it for three games, and Artis only played a TOTAL of 32 minutes in those three games.

And, this data is only scoring and FG%'s.

Once again, all 19 H2H games...

Hakeem averaged 21.4 ppg on .513 shooting.
Gilmore averaged 17.4 ppg on .670 shooting.


Throw out those last three games, and the two went at it in 16 games, from 84-85 thru 86-87, and when Gilmore was between 35-37, and Hakeem was ages 22-24.

Hakeem averaged 20.7 ppg on .516 shooting.
Gilmore averaged 20.3 ppg on .680 shooting (!)


And, in their battles from 84-85 thru 85-86, covering 10 H2H games (Artis at ages 35 and 36, while Hakeem was 22 and 23)

Hakeem averaged 18.7 ppg on .493 shooting.
Gilmore averaged 23.7 ppg on .677 shooting.


Now, how much they actually defended each other still does not diminish what Gilmore accomplished. It just confirms that Gilmore was/is unquestionably one of the most under-rated centers of all-time.

[bizil]

Interesting...

A 35-38 year old Gilmore faced a 22-25 year old Hakeem in 19 H2H games. From what I could gather, Hakeem was the starting center against Gilmore, although I could not confirm that the two exclusively defended each other.

Given the fact that Hakeem was the starting center in 23 H2H's against Kareem (and in their 5 playoff H2H's, it was SAMPSON who was assigned to Kareem), I suspect that the two did indeed guard each other for much of those H2H's.

Now, this data includes Gilmore's last season in the league, at age 38, and when he only played on 13 mpg. In that last season, the two went at it for three games, and Artis only played a TOTAL of 32 minutes in those three games.

And, this data is only scoring and FG%'s.

Once again, all 19 H2H games...

Hakeem averaged 21.4 ppg on .513 shooting.
Gilmore averaged 17.4 ppg on .670 shooting.


Throw out those last three games, and the two went at it in 16 games, from 84-85 thru 86-87, and when Gilmore was between 35-37, and Hakeem was ages 22-24.

Hakeem averaged 20.7 ppg on .516 shooting.
Gilmore averaged 20.3 ppg on .680 shooting (!)


And, in their battles from 84-85 thru 85-86, covering 10 H2H games (Artis at ages 35 and 36, while Hakeem was 22 and 23)

Hakeem averaged 18.7 ppg on .493 shooting.
Gilmore averaged 23.7 ppg on .677 shooting.


Gilmore is unquestionably one of the most under-rated centers of all-time.

Most definitely agree! A Train was a beast and should have been in the HOF long ago. I'm glad he got in though. He had great longevity as well in terms of being an elite center. Gilmore, Bellamy, and Thurmond in particular seem to not really get their just due. They battled in eras where the center pool was deep. A prime A Train today would be the best center in the L in my opinion.

[FindingTim]

Gilmore may be underrated, but he sure kicks ass in NBA 2K12.
also, I think it's very transparent now that Gilmore >> Olajuwon.

[chocolatethunder]

Hakeem wasn't the same player when he was young. When he was young he still relied on his athleticism and he was really still learning basketball. To me he had a late peak. His game really changed once Rudy T became his coach. That's when he became the Hakeem that everyone remembers.

[jlauber]

Most definitely agree! A Train was a beast and should have been in the HOF long ago. I'm glad he got in though. He had great longevity as well in terms of being an elite center. Gilmore, Bellamy, and Thurmond in particular seem to got really get their just due. They battled in eras were the center pool was deep. A prime A Train today would be the best center in the L in my opinion.

I will take the time to post the Gilmore-Kareem H2H's one of these days. The two basically came into the league around the same time (although Artis was in the ABA for several seasons), and both retired around the same time (Kareem had a slightly longer career.)

From the initial research, it appears that in the H2H's that I looked up (and there were quite a few), that Kareem slightly outscored Artis, while Artis outshot Kareem by a considerable margin.

It will be interesting.

Also, the Lanier-Kareem H2H's seemed to be close, as well.

From the research that I have done, Moses appeared to get the best of all of them (I KNOW that he outplayed Kareem by a considerable margin in their 40 H2H's...and I have posted that before.)

[jlauber]

Hakeem wasn't the same player when he was young. When he was young he still relied on his athleticism and he was really still learning basketball. To me he had a late peak. His game really changed once Rudy T became his coach. That's when he became the Hakeem that everyone remembers.

Defensively, perhaps. Offensively (and in rebounding), his numbers from even his rookie season, and considering MPG, were pretty steady his entire career.

For instance, in his second season, 85-86, he averaged 36.3 mpg, and scored 23.5 ppg on .526 shooting, with 11.5 rpg. (BTW, in his rookie season, he averaged 35.5 mpg, 20.6 ppg, shot a career high .538, and grabbed 11.9 rpg.)

Now, in his supposed peak, 93-94 (which was slightly better than his 94-95 season), he played a career high 41.0 mpg, averaged 27.3 ppg, shot .528, and grabbed 11.9 rpg.

And compare them by PER/36 and they were extremely close.

Not a big difference offensively.

[tpols]

Defensively, perhaps. Offensively (and in rebounding), his numbers from even his rookie season, and considering MPG, were pretty steady his entire career.

For instance, in his second season, 85-86, he averaged 36.3 mpg, and scored 23.5 ppg on .526 shooting, with 11.5 rpg. (BTW, in his rookie season, he averaged 35.5 mpg, 20.6 ppg, shot a career high .538, and grabbed 11.9 rpg.)

Now, in his supposed peak, 93-94 (which was slightly better than his 94-95 season), he played a career high 41.0 mpg, averaged 27.3 ppg, shot .528, and grabbed 11.9 rpg.

And compare them by PER/36 and they were extremely close.

Not a big difference offensively.

The 80s had higher point totals and percentages than the 90s right?

[jlauber]

The 80s had higher point totals and percentages than the 90s right?

Yes they did, although the decline from '85 thru '94 was a small steady one. In 84-85 the NBA averaged 110.2 ppg on .491 shooting. A decade later it was down to 101.5 ppg on .466 shooting. It was no surprise that Hakeem's CAREER HIGH FG% (and by a solid margin) came in his ROOKIE season when he shot .538 in a league that shot .491. Hakeem's next highest FG% season was in 92-93, when he shot .529 in a league that shot .473.

BTW, as a sidenote, Hakeem had three of his best post-seasons in his first four years (his 2nd thru 4th seasons.) In the 85-86 post-season, he averaged 26.9 ppg, 11.8 rpg and shot .530 (in 20 playoff games.) In the 86-87 post-season, he averaged 29.2 ppg, 11.3 rpg, and shot .615 (in 10 playoff games.) And in his 87-88 post-season, he averaged 37.5 ppg, 16.8 rpg and shot .571 (albeit, in only four playoff games.)

[Xiao Yao You]

His game really changed once Rudy T became his coach. That's when he became the Hakeem that everyone remembers.

The game of basketball changed. The way most teams play now goes back to that team with Hakeem posting and kicking to guys spotting for 3's.

Artis had the GOAT fro!

[jlauber]

Hakeem did battle Moses to close to mostly a draw from Hakeem's first season, 84-85, thru Moses' last full season, 89-90.

Here were their numbers in those 12 H2H games...

Hakeem averaged 20.3 ppg, 10.9 rpg, and shot .467.
Moses averaged 21.6 ppg, 12.5 rpg, and shot .453.

Granted, Moses' last great season was in 84-85, and he had even greater one's prior to that, but he was still a force thru 86-87, and a very good player up thru that 89-90 season, when he averaged 18.9 ppg, 10.0 rpg, and shot .480.

And the Hakeem fans will argue that Hakeem didn't reach his peak until around the early to mid-90's.

[iamgine]

Hakeem, like most players, was raw his first two seasons.

Try comparing his third season onwards vs Artis.

[millwad]

Jlauber, you're full of shit as always

This is the correct stats regarding Olajuwon's head to head vs Artis;

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=olajuha01

And Artis didn't even face Olajuwon 10 times from 84-86..

[millwad]

Hakeem, like most players, was raw his first two seasons.

Try comparing his third season onwards vs Artis.

The moron, Jlauber, even posted the wrong stats and he made up games they didn't even play against each other..

[millwad]

Hakeem did battle Moses to close to mostly a draw from Hakeem's first season, 84-85, thru Moses' last full season, 89-90.

Here were their numbers in those 12 H2H games...

Hakeem averaged 20.3 ppg, 10.9 rpg, and shot .467.
Moses averaged 21.6 ppg, 12.5 rpg, and shot .453.

Granted, Moses' last great season was in 84-85, and he had even greater one's prior to that, but he was still a force thru 86-87, and a very good player up thru that 89-90 season, when he averaged 18.9 ppg, 10.0 rpg, and shot .480.

And the Hakeem fans will argue that Hakeem didn't reach his peak until around the early to mid-90's.

Hakeem fans will argue that you're full of shit and that you posted the wrong stats..

[jlauber]

The moron, Jlauber, even posted the wrong stats and he made up games they didn't even play against each other..

Dickwad...

Do you EVER do ANY research?

They faced each other SIX times in the 84-85 season. I don't have time to pull the numbers right now, but Gilmore dominated Hakeem in those six meetings.

Of course, all YOU have to do is look up the actual H2H's YOURSELF!

What a complete IDIOT!