Myth: Derrick Rose is an elite POINT guard ( He is an undersized SG like Wade)

[shortlunatic]

at the OP.

Terrible analysis. Anyone who has seen Rose would be a blind idiot to think he would be better of at the 2 spot. The guy needs some major improvement on his three ball before you even think about having him start there. Second, like someone else said, pick n roll? With who? What big man do the Bulls have that they could run a pick n roll on a regular basis and have it be effective? Get someone like Bosh or even David Lee in here before you start making judgements like that. And about how many shots he's taking, who else is going to take them? Who else on the Bulls can Rose confidently dish the ball to that will hit the shot or get it done at the rim? Exactly. I would rather see Rose taking those mid range shots or driving it in any day over him dishing it out so someone can shoot a brick. Get in some solid players and watch the assists rise...

And there was someone who said he had no shot. His mid range shot is a thing a beauty. Anyone who slacks of him in the mid range area does not "Know his personal".

[Undisputed]

Whatever Rose is, he's doing huge things for the Bulls this season. I like Rose running the point more than playing the two. You all must keep in mind that Rose has been told all season by the coaching staff to look for his offense. He's not a pure point guard, but he's a damn good(and all-star, can't forget that) point guard. That's good enough for me. Rose is a playmaker and has good court vision, it's just the current Bulls team is not right for him.

[dak121]

He plays alongside the SG version of Bruce Bowen. Not to mention the rest of team is full of garbage scorers outside of Deng, who only plays well for 3 quarters a game.

Who else is going to score?

[Glide2keva]

All this conclusions from watching ONE f*cking game.

Amazing.

I KNOW!

thread FAIL!

[cdorse1]

The Bulls are an awful offensive team. They have no shooters and no low post scorers. You're so biased how often did Rose's penetration lead to an open look for a teammate for them not to hit an open shot. Or how about on the pick and pop when Miller pops and misses all of his shots.

You mention these thread the needle passes by Mayo they were none of the sort it's a competent big man in Gasol finishing a pick and roll something Rose doesn't have even with a healthy Noah.

Lastly you bring up Wall and the dribble drive offense which was used at Memphis. This is not really used @ Kentucky if you watch there games they play a lot of high low because of their two beast on the block in Patterson and Cousins. They still play some dribble drive but not close to the amount Rose did at Memphis.

"We are a post-up team, folks," Calipari said after Kentucky's 72-70 victory. Then Calipari added, "We just have to figure out how we're going to play.

http://www.kentucky.com/2009/11/18/1...t-of-cats.html

There is no post up in the DDM offense.

Lastly Mayo is not a better passer or playmaker than Rose. With Gasol and Randolph down there Mayo if he were this great playmaker would get more than his 2.5 assist a game. The dude is a scorer and he had a good game yesterday but he probably never be close to the hype he came in with, solid 2nd option nothing to write home about.

Even on a night where Rose didn't have close to his A-game this is what Hollins had to say on Rose.

And Grizzlies coach Lionel Hollins predicted, "He's going to be one of the all-time greats before he's done."

http://nwitimes.com/sports/basketbal...3a87ea48b.html

[Batman]

Derrick Rose> OJ Mayo. Mayo got lucky outplaying Rose last night, it will never happen again.

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

Derrick Rose> OJ Mayo. Mayo got lucky outplaying Rose last night, it will never happen again.

we play them again in 2 weeks. he will.

[gotbacon23]

meh, they need rose to score currently. him and deng are the only 2 people on that team that can put the ball in the hoop on a consistent basis besides putting in put backs or dunks. would you rather have rose feeding the ball to kirk hinrich, taj gibson, joakim noah (when healthy), or brad miller, or would you rather him score the basketball himself??

put him on a team with more talented offensive players and he would play more like a true point guard. he just doesn't have the luxury to play like a true pg when he plays on a team with such offensive ineptitude.

[B-Easy]

meh, they need rose to score currently. him and deng are the only 2 people on that team that can put the ball in the hoop on a consistent basis besides putting in put backs or dunks. would you rather have rose feeding the ball to kirk hinrich, taj gibson, joakim noah (when healthy), or brad miller, or would you rather him score the basketball himself??

put him on a team with more talented offensive players and he would play more like a true point guard. he just doesn't have the luxury to play like a true pg when he plays on a team with such offensive ineptitude.

i disagree, he gets a lot of attention when he drives and doesnt always recognize the open man quick enough

[Poodle]

Let's start of i personally only watch whoever Memphis plays. Since this was our first meeting with the Bulls. This was my first time I got to evaluate Derrick Rose's game. I have watched some of the best POINT guards in this league expose our defense. The Deron Williams, Steve Nash, Rajon Rondo. Even some young puppies like Brandon Jennings and Darren Collision (17 assist on us). We simply struggle with teams with B or better point guard play. Luckily Rose isn't even close to a B point guard. He is a D POINT Guard. An amazing talent probably a top 15 talent for guys 25 or under in this league. However the guy is more of an SG than OJ Mayo, who is more of a PG btw. That is for a different topic to discuss.

Back to Rose.



As you guys know Rose is currently averaging 20 points 3 boards 5 assists. His first 2 games of the month of march he is taking 22 FGA. One thing that jumps at on Rose's statline. Besides his inability to shoot the 3 ball. Is his points per FGAs. Since he can't get to the line, or hit 3s. He really has to shoot the ball ALOT even if it is at an efficient rate. To get to 20 or more. I am talking 18-20 FGAs just to score 20 points..

Next thing i noticed is he is just not very good at pure court vision or passing instincts. I didn't see one pass where i said wow, how did he get that through, none. As you Bulls fans saw Mayo's 3 assists were all bullet legit, threading the needle on the pick and roll to Gasol. Now think if he has the ball everytime down to do that.



Back to Rose again

The most important thing i saw was how awful his pick and roll game is. Guys who are elite PGs, or average a lot of assists say 8 or more. All have killer pick and roll games. I am talking about the John Stockton, Isiah Thomas, Deron Williams. I am almost about to put Collison in that mix with what he has been doing to teams in the pick and roll. Rose was no threat at all coming off the pick and roll.

Why is that?
Simply because of lack of court vision, and outside jumper. Is what it boils down to, not his teammates. I have said it before that OJ Mayo was a better passer and playmaker than Derrick Rose even though the stat sheet doesn't show that, because of the different system and roles they play on their team and tonight only comfirmed that.

I don't think Rose will ever maximize his potential being a full time PG, simply because he just doesn't have natural point guard instincts. I hate to bring up John Wall, but look what John Wall is doing under the same system, the dribble drive aka Princeton on Steriods offense, Rose was in under Callipari assist numbers wise. He should be a combo guard that spilts time at point and shooting guard like Billups. That will help Rose's psyche because he would know at an SG his job is to put the ball in the hole, and not worry about passing around the wings with no purpose.

He could average 26 points a game. He reminds me of Monta Ellis a lot. He has the same skill set and limited court vision, so why not max out his potential as an SG. Monta is averaging 25 5 5. There is no reason why Rose can't do the same.

One more thing, you just can't win ball games ( playoffs, championships) down the line when Rose enters his prime, with him being a Point Guard. Taking 20 FGAs or more a game constantly. I mean see Gilbert Areanas.

The last two games Rose has had 24 points on 24 FGAs dishing out 3 assists. and tonight 20 points on 21 FGAs dishing out 3 assists. both in losses.

Great talent, playing wrong position.
Burns87, and Rose's fans do you agree?

i pretty much agree with everything you said here. rose has a ton of talent but isn't a smart PG imo, and plays more like a SG. i think Mayo is a very intelligent basketball player this year, and watching him doesn't make me bang my head against a wall like rose sometimes. i actually love Mayo's bball intelligence, the shots he takes, and how he is way more about winning than getting his. where as rose, it feels like he's still trying to prove himself, and just has little respect for the rest of his teammates, which probably has some validity, but not to the level rose seems to distrust them. its why i had some criticisms for Rose during a Bulls game thread then all of the bulls homers got all mad

homers just have the least perspective when talking bball. its a goddamn shame there are so many of them here that can't be objective.

[gotbacon23]

i disagree, he gets a lot of attention when he drives and doesnt always recognize the open man quick enough

so you think that gibson, hinrich, noah, etc should get more shots than rose?? he may not recognize the open man quick enough, but when the open man sucks at offense you are going to look to score more than pass. they are opened for a reason. if the opened man was, say, amare stoudemire at the 4 rather than taj gibson, he would be more inclined to pass.

[Poodle]

at the OP.

Terrible analysis. Anyone who has seen Rose would be a blind idiot to think he would be better of at the 2 spot. The guy needs some major improvement on his three ball before you even think about having him start there. Second, like someone else said, pick n roll? With who? What big man do the Bulls have that they could run a pick n roll on a regular basis and have it be effective? Get someone like Bosh or even David Lee in here before you start making judgements like that. And about how many shots he's taking, who else is going to take them? Who else on the Bulls can Rose confidently dish the ball to that will hit the shot or get it done at the rim? Exactly. I would rather see Rose taking those mid range shots or driving it in any day over him dishing it out so someone can shoot a brick. Get in some solid players and watch the assists rise...

And there was someone who said he had no shot. His mid range shot is a thing a beauty. Anyone who slacks of him in the mid range area does not "Know his personal".

rose has an excellent mid range shot, excellent drive ability, but he needs to work on finishing ALOT. his decision making is really bad compared to the top PG's around the league which imo puts him way below them because it can be so bad sometimes.

thing is rose practically plays like a 2 and he probably would be there more if he could hit 3's. the original poster is right that rose generally chucks a lot to get his numbers. he also blinders the basket real hard and doesn't have the vision a lot of the top pg's do, and i'm not sure he'll ever get there tbh. like deron williams had vision early on, while the rest of his game improved a lot, but rose just comes across to me as kind of a selfish, somewhat dumb player. again he has all of the talent to be great but mentally more than anything i just don't think he'll get there.

[Kellogs4toniee]

I agree that he has not shown the skill-set of a pure point guard yet, but it's his second year. Even before Rose was drafted by the Bulls, Hinrich was already shooting in the low 40's and high 30's.

Have you seen Rose's swing-man's shooting percentages this year? If you had them as your swingman and Miller / Noah as your bigs, any coach would want his talented young guard to shoot / attack / score more instead of focusing on passing to players who miss 60% of the time.

Not sure if you watched the All-Star game, but with players who had finish and shoot well, Rose averaged 4 assists, 3 steals, and 8 points in 15 minutes of play. I believe at his highest maturity he will be a consistent 25 ppg / 9-10 assist type of player with efficient percentages.

It's just the system right now with Del Negro requires him to shoot more than pass more. I also disagree with alot of your Mayo comments, but I'd rather not argue against someone with the players name.

[Poodle]

so you think that gibson, hinrich, noah, etc should get more shots than rose?? he may not recognize the open man quick enough, but when the open man sucks at offense you are going to look to score more than pass. they are opened for a reason. if the opened man was, say, amare stoudemire at the 4 rather than taj gibson, he would be more inclined to pass.

you guys can't keep using that excuse. these are NBA players and hinrich, deng, b.miller, noah, etc. aren't nearly as bad as your pretending. they are easily competent teammates.

problem is rose will take on 3 people and still not look to dish. he's just not the PG distributor most people would like to see in their PG, more than SG chucker/driver.

[Pharcyde]

you guys can't keep using that excuse. these are NBA players and hinrich, deng, b.miller, noah, etc. aren't nearly as bad as your pretending. they are easily competent teammates.

problem is rose will take on 3 people and still not look to dish. he's just not the PG distributor most people would like to see in their PG, more than SG chucker/driver.

1. None of them are catch and shoot players or pick and roll players. And for the hundreth time we run an Iso offense. Which = not a lot of assists.
2. Prove that he doesn't pass it up.
3. Most of Derricks drives are broken plays because we run around 3 plays.
4. He is nothing close to a chucker. He's a guy that would much rather pass first. Since you claim to watch the Bulls so much, you would realize how passive he was earlier in the year. Thid was also when everyone started making threads on how he sucks/doesn't have the will to score. Now that he scores he's a shooting guard/chucker.