ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #13. Elgin Baylor vs Dirk Nowitzki.

[DevilsAssassin]

wtf how did Baylor beat out Pippen?

ISH LMFAO

Dirk

[Brunch@Five]

Didn't see Elgin Baylor. Some call him a prime-Jerry Stackhouse in a weak era, others the prototype of Michael Jordan. He's probably in between those extremes. I couldn't justify a vote other than Dirk has proven to be a winner while Baylor has not. So, my vote goes to Nowitzki

[WillC]

I'm one of Dirk's biggest fans, but his career hasn't been as good as Baylor's. Not yet, anyway.

Baylor was a top 5 player in the league year-in, year-out. He was a perennial All-League 1st Team member. The same cannot be said for Nowitzki, although if Dirk wins another ring or two, I'd put him above Baylor for sure. Not yet though.

So, my vote goes to Baylor.

[pauk]

Elgin Baylor = Was more talented-skilled-dominant... better individual player...

Dirk Nowitzki = Arguably had a more accomplished career....

[D.J.]

Career averages
EB- 27.4/13.5/4.3 on 43.1%
DW- 23.0/8.4/2.7 on 47.6%


Regular season averaging 30+ PPG
EB- 3
DW- 0


# of times averaging a double-double
EB- 11
DW- 0


Playoff averages
EB- 27.0/12.9/4.0 on 43.9%
DW- 25.9/10.4/2.6 on 46.3%


Playoffs averaging 30+ PPG
EB- 4
DW- 0


Top 5 in PPG
EB- 8
DW- 2


Top 5 in RPG
EB- 4
DW- 0


Top 5 in MVP voting
EB- 7
DW- 3


Career PER
EB- 22.7
DW- 23.7


FTA/game
EB- 8.7
DW- 6.5


Titles
EB- 0(though he was given a ring for '72)
DW- 1


Finals Appearances
EB- 7
DW- 2


MVPs
EB- 0
DW- 1


All-NBA 1st teams
EB- 10
DW- 4


Elgin was simply a more dominant player. More accomplishments and more postseason success outside of Dirk's recent title.


Elgin Baylor

[PTB Fan]

The big gap in their efficiency alone is enough to make Dirk better for me but then you compare their playing styles?

Their playing styles are hard to compare because they played in different era and everything has to be taken in consideration.

With Dirk creating mismatches, drawing bigs out of the paint, being able to score perfectly in a team setting in that you can iso him anywhere on the floor when you need a basket and you can work him into an offense without forcing it through him (through pick and pop, kick outs etc), spaces out the floor well for the entire team (very unique for his position), and on top of that he's an amazing decision maker with the ball (for a guy taking close to 20 shots a game and 7-8 FTs, it's remarkable how little he turns the ball over) who scores at a near 50/40/90 clip, plays off doubles well, fits his game well whether he's playing with role players or with all-stars, does more when he needs to and takes a step back when he needs to (because um, on most teams the best thing for a team's offense isn't the star player taking 30 shots a night), has been the centerpiece of great offensive teams for all his career and so on.

Respectable points. Dirk has been very efficient and excellent offensively, as he's one of the all time finest in that regard. I understand the case for him.

Elgin on the other hand I'm not sure had that sort of an effect on his team's offenses, especially as the 60s progressed and he was shooting 2-3% below league average some years (while other perimeter players like West and Oscar were having no problem scoring on well above league fg%). Dude comes a lot off like a chucker, and based on what is said about his game, he played around the rim a lot which makes his inefficiency even more damning to me. I just don't see how he was helping his teams as much as Dirk. Whenever he would miss games, Lakers would often post their best records, in '65 when he got injured in the playoffs...they still went to the finals (but when West was injured in '67 playoffs, they got swept in the first round), there was no drop off with him out in '66 (change of .4 SRS over 16 games), their record was better without him in '70, then he retires and Lakers reel off the longest winning streak ever. To his credit in '62 he did seem to positively impact the team more in games he played than I thought (positive change of 4.5 on the SRS of teams when he played). And he has some really poor shooting post-seasons...I don't personally think he was fitting his game well alongside another star (like West and later, Wilt), nor was he as important to the success of his teams as much as people believe by looking at his raw stats.

Good points. I think Elgin was slightly better offensively, as he was a better pure scorer, more explosive and dominant in this regard too. 71 points is an incredible feat. 40.6 in a Finals series... four post seasons of at least 32.4+ points while leading.

The pace inflated his numbers, his shot selection was crazy and all of the other things like physicality, bad conditions to play, injuries also played a large role in his inefficiency. However, that cannot fully excuse him for being inefficient.

The argument for Baylor being a low impact player past 65 is right. I cannot respond to that. But pre 65 Elgin was a high impact player as he actually scored well within a team context and pushed them pretty far in the post season. In 62, he reached his peaked and that LA team was good.

Other things Dirk has going for him? Durability. Won an MVP, put together one of the best playoff runs on route to a championship and finals MVP, led his teams to better records (Elgin in three seasons before Jerry West became "Jerry West" led teams to 33, 25 and 36 wins, never played on a team that won more than 55 games).

I believe Elgin was just as good if not a better playoff and finals performer than Dirk. His case is hurt but not winning it all though. Baylor did lead them to a Finals in his rookie year and made them a respectable team despite not having notable players in the roster in an era where teams were loaded with HOFers.

[RobertdeMeijer]

Career averages
EB- 27.4/13.5/4.3 on 43.1%
DW- 23.0/8.4/2.7 on 47.6%
Career averages, but the 60s had a much higher pace than the 00s

Regular season averaging 30+ PPG
EB- 3
DW- 0
I don't think scoring 30ppg has alot of merit

# of times averaging a double-double
EB- 11
DW- 0
I don't think double-doubles are that important

Playoff averages
EB- 27.0/12.9/4.0 on 43.9%
DW- 25.9/10.4/2.6 on 46.3%
I don't think this is very convincing either. Do notice how Dirk put up more stats in the Playoffs

Playoffs averaging 30+ PPG
EB- 4
DW- 0
This I do not find a good argument

Top 5 in PPG
EB- 8
DW- 2
What about comparing their offensive rating?

Top 5 in RPG
EB- 4
DW- 0
I'll admit it is surprising that a small forward would do so well off the glass

Top 5 in MVP voting
EB- 7
DW- 3
This is a better argument

Career PER
EB- 22.7
DW- 23.7


FTA/game
EB- 8.7
DW- 6.5
It's probably better to mention True Shooting % than this

Titles
EB- 0(though he was given a ring for '72)
DW- 1


Finals Appearances
EB- 7
DW- 2


MVPs
EB- 0
DW- 1


All-NBA 1st teams
EB- 10
DW- 4
Dirk has 5 second teams if I recall correctly. Not bad, considering he was playing when Garnett, Duncan and LeBron were in the league

Elgin was simply a more dominant player. More accomplishments and more postseason success outside of Dirk's recent title.

If you're going to mention a bunch of per game statistics, why not compare their Win Shares?

Elgin Baylor

This post seems so biased to me

[D.J.]

This post seems so biased to me

No bias. Simply facts. Baylor was making the All-NBA 1st team while going up against Wilt, Cousy, Russell, Schayes, Arizan, Oscar, Heinsohn, West, and Petit. He was so dominant he made the All-NBA 1st team every single time he was nominated to make a team. He was never on the 2nd team.

[FF1]

No bias. Simply facts. Baylor was making the All-NBA 1st team while going up against Wilt, Cousy, Russell, Schayes, Arizan, Oscar, Heinsohn, West, and Petit. He was so dominant he made the All-NBA 1st team every single time he was nominated to make a team. He was never on the 2nd team.

You realize that forwards "don't go up against" people who aren't forwards, right?

[D.J.]

You realize that forwards "don't go up against" people who aren't forwards, right?

Of course, but the point is Baylor still had plenty of competition. To say he got those All-NBA teams or any recognition whatsoever because of his position or era is simply untrue.

[TMacsOneGoodEye]

0 rings
Dead last on his team in fg%
Played with two best players of the era, 0 rings
West made an NBA finals w/o him
Team improved when he retired, won ring w/o him

Vs

Reigning NBA champion/ Finals MVP
Made near 400% 3p 500 fg% 900 ft%
Played with no other superstars to get ring
Single handedly turned a dead franchise of 90s into champs
Beat Kobe durant lebron wade to get ring

Dirk wins this.

This.

[jlauber]

Very close...

Dirk.

[kentatm]

Originally Posted by Big164
0 rings
Dead last on his team in fg%
Played with two best players of the era, 0 rings
West made an NBA finals w/o him
Team improved when he retired, won ring w/o him

Vs

Reigning NBA champion/ Finals MVP
Made near 400% 3p 500 fg% 900 ft%
Played with no other superstars to get ring
Single handedly turned a dead franchise of 90s into champs
Beat Kobe durant lebron wade to get ring

Dirk wins this.

x2

[Kblaze8855]

This one may not need the 2 days.

[PTB Fan]

This one may not need the 2 days.

Yeah... Dirk is blowing this thing