Who is/was the better player: Scottie Pippen or Pau Gasol?

[Roundball_Rock]

at the hypocrisy. Daly and Jordan saw all his career. Jordan saw nearly all of his prime with the best seat in the house. He saw him not only in games but in practices. Did you? Were you in the huddle? Were you court-side every night? Were you aware of what the "perfect teammate" (according to one of his teammates, not me) did for his teammates to make them better?

Top 35-40 is where I'd rank him,

That is a distinctly minority view. Even his most effective detractor here has him 22-26 all-time.

You have Pippen top 35-40 and think Gasol is close to him. Does that mean you project Gasol to be top 45-50 all-time when he retires?

This is a great thread. But the perfect cultive for Lakers/Kobe haters to come troll.

Ask EM for the memo regarding his agenda. This is Kobe fan thread aimed at Jordan. The funny thing is Jordan fans have invested so much in diminishing Pippen they are nowhere to be seen in this thread. In every other Pip thread they immediately deploy an armada.

[elementally morale]

That is a distinctly minority view.

I accept that. So? The majority view is that soccer is a much better sport than basketball. Do you share that opinion? Does the fact that you are not sharing it make your opinion less valid?

Daly and Jordan saw all his career.

But they haven't played with or coached Gasol, have they? Jordan's opinion does not account for much. It's the same as asking Shaq who he thinks is the best player in the league. Kobe, Wade or LeBron?

You have Pippen top 35-40 and think Gasol is close to him. Does that mean you project Gasol to be top 45-50 all-time when he retires?

No, unless he wins close to the same number of titles as the 2nd option Pippen has won. A lot of Pippen's high ranking has to do with the fact he was on a championship winning team. I project Gasol a sure shot top 100 when he retires. How much higher depends on how much he is going to win. All time lists have a lot to do with accolades.

[elementally morale]

Ask EM for the memo regarding his agenda. This is Kobe fan thread aimed at Jordan. The funny thing is Jordan fans have invested so much in diminishing Pippen

So where is my 'hidden' agenda again?

If I were to say Kobe is better than people give him credit for, I should be arguing Pippen was A LOT better than Gasol, to make Jordan's achievements look smaller, right?

Where is the logic behind what you say?

[OldSchoolBBall]

Pippen is the better player, but Gasol probably would have complemented MJ more since he's a big.

What's the purpose of this topic, btw? You're one of the posters who laments the constant Kobe/MJ comparisons, but then you start a topic like this. I will say this: even if Pippen is more impactful, it's not by much, and overall LA has a far more stacked team, especially relative to the league (and double especially as compared to the '91-'93 Bulls). Jordan wishes he ever had the kind of offensive firepower around him that Kobe has. Two 7'1" centers who can give you 20+ on 55+% any night, a proven 18-20 ppg scorer in Artest, and a proven 16+ ppg scorer in Odom. That's the reason Kobe is shooting so well this year, actually.

[Roundball_Rock]

I accept that. So? The majority view is that soccer is a much better sport than basketball. Do you share that opinion? Does the fact that you are not sharing it make your opinion less valid?

No, but I pointed it out to help you see why many people view comparing these two as absurd.

But they didn't play with or coached Gasol, have they? jordan's opinion does not account for much. It's the same than asking Shaq who he thinks is the best player in the league. Kobe, Wade or LeBron?

He saw all of Gasol's career. Who has more basketball knowledge? A physicist or the best/second best basketball player ever? According to your standard their opinions trump yours.

Two words: analogical reasoning.

1) 1992 Pippen--which was not peak Pippen--was better than peak Drexler and prime Stockton. (according to MJ. Daly went further and said 92' Pippen>everyone on the Dream Team other than Jordan, who was superior, and Barkley, who was Pippen's equal)
2) Peak Drexler and prime Stockton were far better than prime Gasol
3) Therefore Pippen was far better than Gasol

Surely you don't consider Gasol comparable to peak Drexler...

No, unless he wins close to the same number of titles as the 2nd option Pippen has won. A lot of Pippen's high ranking has to do with the fact he was on a championship winning team.

Tony Parker has three rings as the "second option." Therefore Parker>David Robinson?

All time lists have a lot to do with accolades.

Yeah, which is why the OP is a joke

Gasol: 2x all-star, 1x all-NBA third team, 0 all-defensive teams, 0 MVP votes
Pippen: 7x all-star, 3x all-NBA first team, 2x all-NBA second team, 2x all-NBA third team, 8x all-Defensive first team, 2x all-Defensive second team, member of the Dream Team, 3rd in MVP voting in 94', 5th in MVP voting in 96', and received votes in a few other seasons, named the best all-around player in the NBA in 1995 by players, coaches, and GM's.

These are tangible accolades. What we know is Pippen was considered the consensus best SF for several seasons. He was considered the best perimeter player when Jordan was retired. At his peak he was ranked as high as second-best overall by Sports Illustrated and respected observers like Chuck Daly and Bob Ryan. Gasol is not anywhere close to this. Boozer's accolades are a proper comparison to Gasol. Remember, Boozer was considered a better player than Gasol before Pau began wearing the *purple and gold*.

If I were to say Kobe is better than people give him credit for, I should be arguing Pippen was A LOT better than Gasol, to make Jordan's achievements look smaller, right?

Where is the logic behind what you say?

You knew what most posters would say. No one is fooled by your official position.

What's the purpose of this topic, btw?

To act as if Jordan had more help than Kobe.

even if Pippen is more impactful, it's not by much

Typical coming from you.

Gasol probably would have complemented MJ more since he's a big.

Who runs the offense? Who gets MJ the ball? What happens to Harper and Paxson since they would need legit PG's without Pippen? Why didn't MJ call for trading Pippen for Kemp? That was on the table in January of 1995 so presumably it was possible in July or November. How about Pippen for a promising young PF in McDyess in 97'?

The rest of your post is good, though.

[U got Served]

How are you going to compare a HOF to Pau Gasol? A guy almost no one even cared about when he was with Memphis a few season ago. ISH trolling at its best.

[elementally morale]

What's the purpose of this topic, btw?

1) To have a better understanding of what you guys think.
2) To show it is really hard to have it both ways at the same time.

I will say this: even if Pippen is more impactful, it's not by much

I agree, that's exactly what I think.

You're one of the posters who laments the constant Kobe/MJ comparisons, but then you start a topic like this.

I'm against comparing MJ to Kobe directly because it is way overdone (and not really justified at this point). You can still make the comparison and Jordan wins it. However, I'm not against looking into the details and I can't remember having seen 2nd fiddle vs. second fiddle discussed here lately.

If my view was the majority veiw, that would make the difference between MJ and Kobe bogger, not smaller. Obviously.

Yet, my view is a minority view (indeed), however, people still use the argument in a strange way, flip-flopping all the time. There is no need. You either think Pippen was BY FAR the best second option there ever was (thus helping MJ a lot more than any other player could help anyone else) OR you think there were/are 2nd fiddles comparable to Pippen and MJ having been head and shoulders above the rest.

I think.

[Roundball_Rock]

How are you going to compare a HOF to Pau Gasol? A guy almost no one even cared about when he was with Memphis a few season ago. ISH trolling at its best.

Exactly. The amusing thing is he pretends it is a legit thread. "Second fiddle vs. second fiddle." Who cares? Compare the teams 2-12. He doesn't want to do that because that would kill his agenda.

Artest>Grant/Rodman
Bynum>Kukoc/Cartwright/Longley
Odom>Harper/Paxson/Armstrong

Luc Longley was MJ's #3 option for half of 98'.

[elementally morale]

the OP is a joke

So we can conclude Pippen was so much better than Gasol it is not even worth looking into? I can live with that, but there are certain consequences...

And comparing accolades should be done when careers are over. Pippen's already is, Gasol is in his prime, who just started winning. He is most definitely an all star this year, probably all NBA 2nd team, too. Has a chance to win a ring this year. We don't know the future, but Gasol is doing great.

[elementally morale]

Artest>Grant/Rodman
Bynum>Kukoc/Cartwright/Longley
Odom>Harper/Paxson/Armstrong

Artest is not better than Rodman was. Bynum is a lot worse than Kukoc was. Odom I give you.

However, by saying Artest is better than Rodman and Bynum bettr than Kukoc shows you have NOT seen those Bulls team live. No wonder, you were a little kid back then. It's OK, but why are you pretending you know all this stuff?

[drinkingforfun]

Keep Lakers related thread in the Lakers forum if you don't want to get bash.

[Roundball_Rock]

And comparing accolades should be done when careers are over. Pippen's already is, Gasol is in his prime, who just started winning. He is most definitely an all star this year, probably all NBA 2nd team, too. Has a chance to win a ring this year. We don't know the future, but Gasol is doing great.

Gasol is 29. Pippen at 29 had the following accolades:


Pippen: 5x all-star, 3x all-NBA first team, 1x all-NBA second team, 1x all-NBA third team, 4x all-Defensive first team, 1x all-Defensive second team, member of the Dream Team, 3rd in MVP voting in 94' and received votes in a few other seasons, named the best all-around player in the NBA in 1995 by players, coaches, and GM's, 1x all-star game MVP.

Gasol: 2x all-star, 0x all-NBA first team- 0x all-NBA second team, 1x all-NBA third team, 0x all-Defensive team, 0 MVP votes

These are tangible accolades. Pippen at 29 was considered clearly the best SF in the league, the best perimeter player, arguably the best defender in the league, and a top 2-5 player overall.

Player's primes are usually from 27-30. Gasol will start to decline soon. He is what he is. He is a guy who was considered inferior to Boozer and Shawn Marion (Marion 4x all-star, 2x all-NBA third team, 10th and 14th in MVP voting and a DPOY candidate. This crushes Gasol pre-purple and gold) and light years behind a Amare or Bosh until he had the good luck to be traded to the most glamorous team which is in the #2 market.

I can live with that, but there are certain consequences...

Such as?

[elementally morale]

Such as?

I already said that when answering Loki's question. There is no two ways around this subject.

I think Pippen and Gasol are a lot closer than people think in terms of impact, and there IS a gap between MJ and Kobe. You can take this view, or the one that Pippan was way better than Gasol -- but then the gap between MJ and Kobe gets a lot narrower. Because Rodman was no worse than Artest and Kukoc was better than Bynum is at this point, you know.

[Allstar24]

MJ fans: Gasol
Kobe fans : Pippen

[Roundball_Rock]

That was a weak answer. Teams have 12 players, not 2. If you honestly want to discuss help you need to compare the team 2-12, or at least the key players with each other.

Artest is not better than Rodman was.

Artest is an equally dominant defender, probably better because Rodman was inconsistent on D in 97' and 98' because he didn't play hard D nightly, and a far superior offensive player. Artest>Rodman.

d Bynum bettr than Kukoc shows you have NOT seen those Bulls team live

Bynum is the second best center in the league according to many. Kukoc cannot compare to that. Kukoc never even made an all-star team.

How about comparing Odom to the Bulls' fifth best player? That would be either Ron Harper or Luc Longley.

Ah, the hypocrisy again.

MJ fans: Gasol
Kobe fans : Pippen

No, but it is amusing that both Kobe and Jordan fans are hyping Gasol while nearly everyone else is saying Pippen>>>Gasol. Kobe fans overrate their guy's teammate; Jordan fans are obsessed with diminishing their hero's teammate. What does that tell you?